Canada-China Relations Committee on June 17th, 2024

[Jennifer May]

Thank you.

As the deputy minister said, agricultural and agri-food exports are very important parts of the Canada-China relationship. In 2023, China accounted for over 11% of Canada's total agricultural, agri-food, and fish and seafood exports. To put a dollar figure on it, this meant $11.5 billion. It is the second-largest export market for this sector after the United States. As the deputy minister mentioned, these are quite wide-ranging, as well. They include grains, oilseeds and pulses—for example, canola seed, soybeans, wheat, barley and dried peas—as well as fish, seafood and pork products.

The weight for it, in terms of their own market, is very high for China, but it's particularly important, for example, for wheat, canola, soy, barley, dried peas, ginseng and some fish and seafood products, as well as some pork products. The China market is heavily important for them. Before we had restrictions on pet food products containing pork imposed on us in 2021, China was Canada's second-largest market for pet food products.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I wanted to look at tensions or areas where you anticipate there might be further tensions.

You raised the issue of human rights. Can you share more with us, Ambassador, on the place of human rights and the engagement you've had with your counterparts?

[Jennifer May]

Human rights are front and foremost in our engagements with China. This is an area where we are very clear about our values and about the importance that Canadians attach to human rights. It is an area that we raise both bilaterally here in China and in multilateral organizations and fora, such as at the UN in Geneva or in New York. We raise it through platforms such as the G7 and we raised it in the recent statement by leaders.

It really is very much a fundamental part of the dialogue with China.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos. That's your time.

We'll go now to Mr. Bergeron for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Your Excellency, an article in La Presse on February 6 described the trouble you had getting meetings with senior officials of the Chinese government in Beijing, so much so that Mr. Morrison brought it up with China's previous ambassador to Canada.

First, how do you explain the trouble you had at the beginning of your term?

Second, how would you describe the situation now?

[Jennifer May]

Thank you very much.

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, I arrived in the middle of the pandemic, when China's zero-COVID policy was still in effect. That meant there weren't a lot of meetings and it was very difficult to travel in the country. The situation in China was different from what we saw in the rest of the world. At the beginning of my term, access was quite restricted, not only for Canadians, but also for everyone.

Over the past year, I've seen a very significant change. We have a lot more access. I meet with many different ministers at a number of levels. When I travel to other parts of China, I have meetings with very high-level people. However, it took longer than I would have liked.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

In an interview you did on The House, you stated that China wouldn't appreciate the foreign interference commission's inquiry. You said that it was going to be deeply uncomfortable for the Chinese government.

A few weeks or, rather, months on, would you say that the Chinese are still as uncomfortable?

[Jennifer May]

China says that it doesn't interfere in our democratic system or the systems of other countries. The Chinese are still uncomfortable as a result of constantly being in the headlines. However, it is still very important for Parliament to send these messages. Yes, it's uncomfortable, but for them, not for us.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Speaking of interference, five members of the Canada-China Legislative Association went to the People's Republic of China from March 24 to 29, 2024, to attend the 24th bilateral meeting between members of the association and members of the National Congress of the Communist Party of China. The delegation was led by the Honourable Paul Massicotte, senator, and Han Dong, MP for Don Valley North, who was the other co-chair of the association at the time.

We invited both of them to appear before the committee, but both declined. We will certainly have the opportunity to revisit that.

Wasn't there something embarrassing about sending the member for Don Valley North to represent Canada given the foreign interference situation?

[Jennifer May]

Mr. Chair, dialogue at all levels and in all sectors is very important when working with China. The Canada-China Legislative Association has also given us access to senior officials in China's National Congress. A number of political parties were represented.

For the Chinese, it was an opportunity to have direct access to the opinions of parliamentarians, see the plurality of their ideas and note the extent to which they defended Canadian democracy. The Canadian parliamentarians raised the same kinds of questions we do in our roles as government representatives, whether at the embassy or at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Morrison, the Government of Canada's overall approach to its relationship with the People's Republic of China going forward is to co‑operate with the Chinese and call them out when necessary, in keeping with Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy. In other words, the Canadian government now intends to promote pragmatic diplomacy—as was mentioned earlier—and forge ties with countries that have different viewpoints from Canada's. The ultimate goal is to prevent an international conflict.

Did you call out representatives of the People's Republic of China when you were there? If so, on what topic? Did you happen to bring up the issue of the Uyghur genocide?

[David Morrison]

Thank you for your question.

I'm not sure what you mean by calling them out.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I can't tell you what that entails. That's not my job.

[David Morrison]

No, of course not. I'll try to answer the question.

As I said before, we touched on a lot of bilateral and multilateral topics, even sensitive ones.

It includes the most sensitive areas, including human rights, Xinjiang, the situation in Hong Kong and Tibet.

Yes, I think that my going to Beijing was a demonstration of pragmatic diplomacy, because we spoke of those areas where Canada and China may find some agreement, but we also spoke of the areas where we don't find any agreement, and that includes Xinjiang.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

We'll now go to Ms. McPherson for six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the guests for being here today.

If I could, Ambassador, I'm going to start with you and maybe follow up on some of the questions we've heard from other members.

Obviously, in the Indo-Pacific strategy, I was disappointed. I don't think that there was enough of a focus on human rights, particularly knowing what we have seen coming out of Xinjiang and many of the human rights abuses that we've seen happen in China. How and how often are you raising these issues with your Chinese counterparts?

In particular, I would go back to the case that Mr. Kmiec has brought forward. For Huseyin Celil, it has been almost two decades. He is a Canadian citizen, regardless of what China says. I would like to get more information. He and his wife came to Canada. They have four children. China convinced the Uzbek police to send him back to China, where he has been held for almost two decades. How are you advocating for him?

I would certainly hope that it is not an instance where you just say, well, the Chinese government says they're not going to let us see him, and that's that. I mean, he is a Canadian citizen, and we expect that he would have the same access to consular support as any other Canadian citizen. What steps are being taken and how often are those steps being taken?

[Jennifer May]

The human rights are raised. Xinjiang is our concern in every single meeting that we have. We make the point that we have a genuine concern for these issues. It's not a tool that we are using against China; it is a genuine concern, as the member very strongly indicated.

I agree completely that a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, and that Mr. Celil is under Canadian law, under Canadian policy, under Canadian values. He is as Canadian as everybody else.

The unfortunate reality is that as a Chinese citizen as well, under law, China is taking a very restrictive approach to that. The reality is that we can keep asking for access, but at the end of the day, it is China that will decide whether we get that access or not. I am raising it as well when I go to Xinjiang, and continue to raise our concerns, absolutely.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would like to be clear that this is something that you are repeatedly telling your Chinese counterparts is a priority for Canada, because he is, of course, a Canadian citizen.

I know that some people have asked for there to be an appointment of a special envoy to work on securing Mr. Celil's release and to seek assistance from our allies. Has that been done?

[Jennifer May]

There is not a special envoy for this case.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Is that being considered?

[Jennifer May]

It would not be my position to talk about what the government may or may not be considering at this time.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I do want to just express that it does appear there is concern being shown, without particular steps being taken to do whatever can be done to protect Mr. Celil.

One of the things that you had talked about in your testimony was the five points, and I know you talked about making sure that we are dealing with human rights, we are dealing with forced labour. I know we talked about solar panels with, to be fair, a quite light drive-by on how solar panels are made, Mr. Morrison. I would say it was not expressed. I think we heard from other members that it was not expressed terribly strongly.

We do know that we have a challenge in this country where we have very soft, very insufficient legislation to deal with forced labour. We've seized no goods from the region, despite knowing that these goods are coming into this country. We know that the U.S. has a much stronger and much better ability to regulate that, so I do have a question on forced labour.

There was an important story that came out from Alexander Panetta, in CBC, a few weeks ago about forced labour, and Canada's failure to stop shipments of goods made with forced labour. A U.S. law passed two years ago created the list of products made in forced re-education camps in China's Xinjiang region. The U.S. has surged forward in its enforcement and detaining of goods, and the system in the U.S. is having a real impact. However, in Canada, we are not doing that. CBSA is not detaining deliveries the way it should, and a U.S. senator is worried that shipments blocked in, for example, Oregon, are being rerouted to Canadian ports.

Here in Ottawa we are still waiting for promised legislation from the Minister of Labour that should, we hope, limit goods from Xinjiang and China that are made with forced labour.

How, when and how often are you raising concerns about the Uyghur genocide, forced labour in Xinjiang, and the impacts on trade with Canada when you're conversing with your Chinese counterparts? When can we expect there to be sufficient legislation to deal with this issue?

I'll start with you, Mr. Morrison, please.

[David Morrison]

The question on when the legislation will be in and operating in the way that I believe the government intends is a question better addressed to the government. I don't know.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Unfortunately, it's difficult to get them to come to committee, but thank you.

[David Morrison]

That is, of course, an ESDC lead and the Minister of Labour lead.

In terms of the possibility of transshipment, that is something that we watch very closely, because the U.S. watches it very closely. We have no interest in allowing Canada to be used as a way of transshipping solar panels into the United States. That would be bad for reasons of our commitment to supply chains, and it would be bad for our relationship with the United States.