Canada-China Relations Committee on June 17th, 2024

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

There are just times when you can relate.

Ambassador May, I took a lot of heat at this committee for many months as we waited for your appointment. It was worth the wait. I often said, both in the House and here, that we were waiting for the right person at the right time. Thank you for your work in Beijing and elsewhere in China.

When you raise the issue of human rights, what kind of response do you get? Do they consider that foreign interference? Do they deny it exists or do they want to engage in any conversation at all?

[Jennifer May]

Mr. Chair, I appreciate very much the member's vote of confidence in my role here.

When we raise the issues, the member's points are in fact all true. In some cases, they deny that it's happening. They believe and express to us that we are simply using this as a political tool in order to try to diminish China's stature. It is an area where they also claim that in raising these issues, yes, they consider this to be foreign interference in their domestic situation.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I want to raise the issue of incarcerated people.

When I did consular affairs, we had around 120 Canadians incarcerated in prisons, not just Huseyin Celil, but about 120, I believe, maybe fewer now. It was a big file that I carried.

What is the status of incarcerated Canadians now in China? I don't need the number necessarily.

[Jennifer May]

It is in the range of 100 incarcerated Canadians at any given point in time, on a wide range of charges.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Do we have adequate consular services to provide care for them or should we be asking for more from the government?

[Jennifer May]

We provide consular services to everybody, to the extent we can. One of our significant challenges is around access to Canadian citizens who are dual nationals and also nationals of China.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Understood.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you.

Now we have come to the end of the list of people asking questions—at least the list that has been provided to me. We still have a bit of time left, though, and I thought that perhaps we'd offer Mr. Bergeron another two and a half minutes and Ms. McPherson another two and a half minutes to wrap up our session.

Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I would like to ask a question, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Yes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Is there any reason for us to end 15 minutes early?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

I have a few other bits and pieces to cover, but at the same time, we've run the full list of people who had put their name forward to ask questions.

We're making an extra provision just for you and for Ms. McPherson.

Two and a half minutes for you, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

It's too kind of you.

During his appearance before the Special Committee on the Canada-People's Republic of China Relationship on November 27, 2023, Canada's ambassador to Japan and Canada's special envoy for the Indo-Pacific, Ian McKay, stated the following: “Canada’s Indo-Pacific strategy was created in large measure as a response to the emergence of China as a major global economic and military power and to deepen and broaden our engagements with partners in the region”.

Funnily enough—ironically enough, even—Mr. McKay also said this about China: “They're not spending a whole lot of attention and time thinking about our Indo-Pacific strategy. I don't think it has enhanced our dialogues going forward, but at the same time I don't think it has hindered our dialogues going forward.”

Ms. May and Mr. Morrison, do you have any brief comments on that?

[David Morrison]

Mr. Chair, if I understood the question correctly, I would say that we are setting up a kind of structured dialogue. However, what the Chinese wanted to do after what happened with Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor was to go back to the way things were in 2018, which was out of the question. They did the same thing with the Americans and other allies. They always wanted to have structured dialogues.

Structured dialogues were common more than 10 years ago. We don't want to do that. We want to focus more piecemeal on the things that are really core to Canada's interests, and that was very much the spirit of my visit there. We're not interested in something called a “structured dialogue” just because that's a deliverable from a visit. We're going to measure our progress in terms of things we actually get done rather than declarations we can sign.

I must say that China views these things a little differently. They would like to have us sign up to a set of principles. We would like to focus on an agenda to go forward. I'm quite confident that we can meet somewhere in the middle that melds those two approaches—that's what diplomacy calls for—but I don't think you'll see a return to the way that the relationship was run more than a decade ago.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Now we go to you, Ms. McPherson, for two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The Indo-Pacific strategy was created to help Canada diversify our relationships within the Indo-Pacific region and to stop the sole dependence on China, so that relationship is changing, as you mentioned, Mr. Morrison. We know that one of the biggest impacts geopolitically that could happen in the coming months is the potential election of Donald Trump in the United States. As the U.S. is our largest trading partner, what will the impact of that be on the Canada-China relationship? How are we preparing to manage that relationship?

I start with you, Mr. Morrison.

[David Morrison]

Much is up for grabs as we look to democratic events in the United States in the fall. I will say, however, that the Indo-Pacific strategy is much more than a China hedge. The Indo-Pacific strategy is very explicit that the centre of political and economic weight in the world has moved, and is continuing to move, towards the Indo-Pacific so, for the future security and prosperity of Canadians, we need to move there as well.

China tends to see a great number of things through a China-U.S. lens, and the rest of us, in terms of close partners of the United States, are not in the same category. How this plays out under a future Biden or Trump administration is something we'll look at very closely. I have personally been at pains to impress upon our Chinese interlocutors that we are Canada. We're not just another entity near the United States. We have a long and proud history of Canada-China relations, and we don't agree with the United States about everything, either, so if they want to deal with Canada, they should deal with Canada.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Ambassador, is there anything that you'd like to add very quickly?

[Jennifer May]

The United States is a very important lens, absolutely, and I think this is going to be very much dominating China's attention going ahead after the election, in terms of how they calibrate that relationship. Certainly that will have an impact, not just for Canada but for everybody.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

We're honoured to have you both here. We have a moment or so. Do you have any final thoughts? First we go to you, Mr. Morrison, and then to you, Ambassador May.

[David Morrison]

I'd like to thank the members of the committee. It was a pleasure to be here and discuss these issues with them.

It was a very civil exchange, and as an official, a non-political person, I greatly appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, sir.

Your Excellency, go ahead.

[Jennifer May]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to appear.

I thank the committee for all of the work that you do in order to deepen Canadians' understanding of China and our relationship with China, and for raising your concerns that we can also parlay and relay back to the Chinese government as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you.

We'll let you go.

I have just a quick comment or two.

Members, you will have received the proposed outline for the draft interim report on our Indo-Pacific strategy study, and we would look to you all to absorb that. You can certainly get back to our analysts with any additional thoughts you might have. You know, we have an opportunity over the coming months to do a little bit of deeper thinking on a lot of things to do with this committee and the work we've done.

At this point, I think it's time to wish you all a most excellent summer. Thank you for the work you've done and the collegiality you've invariably shown. You know, we've had some very interesting discussions and the work that's come out of the committee has been top-notch, I think.

Of course, our clerk, our analysts, our interpreters and all of the staff that help keep this going are all invaluable to us.

With that, have a wonderful summer.

The meeting is adjourned.