Evidence of meeting #125 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was deepfakes.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law, As an Individual
I have it open here right now.
Are there some specific sections you'd like me to go to?
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
I want to know if you can outline to the committee what you understand those changes to be.
I don't want to put you on the spot.
5:15 p.m.
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law, As an Individual
I must confess that, just because of the short amount of time I had to get prepared for this, I don't want to say I'll pass on that, but if I don't have enough time right now, I'd love to pass on that.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Okay.
Let me go back with regard to the consultation process with which you were involved in 2020.
Can you tell me a bit more about the consultations that were held and what, in your opinion, the advancements were that you would think have been made ever since then?
5:15 p.m.
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law, As an Individual
That's a great question.
At least what I found was really good about the process was the sense that everyone had a different type of expertise and everyone could be on the same page of all wanting something to happen. I found that keeping to our confidentiality and keeping to our goals meant that the impact on me, at least, was that there's not just going to be this bill that takes care of this issue. In the brainstorming that we did together and in the brainstorming that's been done for whatever bill somebody's interested in here, that's not going to be the end of it.
One of the most important takeaways we need is to plant that seed with everyone: There will be other pieces of legislation that can be tweaked to match the purposes of what we're talking about right now. For example, I was inspired to think that, in particular, consumer protection law has been one of the greatest ways to have ideas of harm in one area be then even more refined in another piece of legislation.
In the spirit of realizing that something may not be in the perfect form that anybody and everybody wants in that group, the idea of slowing down is unthinkable. From my experience, it's given me at least way more recharge and hopeful creativity to see other pieces of legislation where this topic, which the purpose of this bill is to address, can be subsequently brought up. I'll give you one example: online harm that happens to children in some very distressful situations. Whether it's separating parents or brothers and sisters who are especially mean, there are things that can be done in family law in the future.
That idea of it is so cliché—that this is just the beginning—but one of the hopes I have is that everyone realizes that this is just the beginning, and this bill is not the end of it.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
In your introduction, Professor Daum Shanks, you spoke about the difficulty for victims to get specific harms recognized as such, as they're not covered by the existing jurisprudence. I'm curious to know how the digital safety commission and the digital safety ombudsperson proposed in Bill C-63 would help us better support victims and make sure they have their voices heard.
5:20 p.m.
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law, As an Individual
One of the most familiar ways to think of that is as a place that I see as very similar to the idea of duty of care: having a place where individuals have a way to talk about what their harm is in a way that perhaps has never been heard before. In how duty of care has been thought of in the past, in some of its other imaginings, it is that we have to be prepared to learn about a new type of relationship. That might be students in the same classroom. It might be a supervisor at a job or it might be a former partner or girlfriend or boyfriend. We have to be prepared—
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
We need to wrap up, please. We have to finish this. I still have Mr. Champoux and Ms. Ashton.
Thank you very much.
June 13th, 2024 / 5:20 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
What I understand, what we all understand, is that one organization or level of government won't find solutions to this problem. This is a whole-of-society issue, and everybody has to contribute. Obviously, the legislative branch has to do its duty, as do the technology platforms, in my opinion. However, as individuals and as a society, we must also do our part.
I realize that, despite the threat you're describing today, not a lot of awareness is being raised about this in primary and secondary schools or CEGEPs. People don't know much about deepfakes, and that concerns me. I wasn't born at a time when it was common to have cellphones with Internet access. I don't want to assume your age, Ms. Moreau, but I get the impression that you probably grew up with this technology, unlike me.
Do you think we would be able to educate the younger generations enough if we started very early to give them the tools to protect themselves against this kind of danger? I'm sure you believe that. Seven-year-olds are given cellphones with Internet access. There are children, very young children, who can access this content and, as a result, they are susceptible to being victimized by this.
In your opinion, why are young people not being aggressively educated in primary school about the risks they are taking when they share their content and simply browse the Internet? Why isn't that being done yet?
5:25 p.m.
BCL/JD, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual
We really need to embark on a societal project about this issue. Perhaps we should intervene at schools in all the provinces. I don't know the answer to your question, but it's important to point out two things.
First, we have to look at how we teach children to use new technologies. They often adopt these new technologies even faster than we, the older generation, do.
Second, it's important to understand why deepfake pornography is so harmful and why it constitutes a significant infringement. That's why we're so focused on this issue. We need to educate young people so that they understand that what happens on the Internet really affects them in the physical world. They need to know that when they talk to a classmate, for example, that once that same person is at home, they can use their image and make deepfake pornography. I think it's sometimes a little hard to picture yourself on a screen after a deepfake.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you very much.
I'm going to Ms. Ashton.
Niki, you have two and a half minutes.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB
Thank you.
I want to go back to a point, Ms. Moreau, that you mentioned in French: a social project.
Obviously, the whole point of our being here and hearing from you is to put together recommendations for government. All of the witnesses have spoken specifically about this very troubling reality with respect to the misuse of AI, the use of deepfakes and the victimization of, particularly, women.
I'm wondering if you have any thoughts to share on how this ought to also reinforce education and, more importantly, action around equality and ending violence against women. It seems to me that we can't be talking about the use of deepfakes and victimizing women online if we're not talking about it off-line as well. I'm wondering if, in the spirit of making recommendations, you have any suggestions on that front.
Perhaps Professor Daum Shanks could briefly share some thoughts on that too.
Thank you.
5:25 p.m.
BCL/JD, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual
The first thing you have to ask is why a nude image of a woman is so damaging. Why is there a reputational harm from that being shared? What kind of cultural response do we have to women's sexuality so that it's specifically women who are targeted with this—so that 99% of pornographic deepfakes are of women? There is a huge gender skew to that. I think you have to look at that fact in context with our treatment of women more broadly.
Also, look at it specifically in the context of physical, as you said, real-world violence against women, which is often taking place in conjunction with online violence against women. Many of the revenge porn cases we've seen litigated and that have gone to court have been in the context of intimate partner violence. Revenge porn is often used to threaten partners: “If you leave, I will release this of you.” I think those things aren't separable. I think you need to have education to combat both and see them as fundamentally linked.
5:25 p.m.
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law, As an Individual
I was just going to quickly pipe up, to make sure I don't take up all the time.
5:25 p.m.
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Ombuds offices can do lots.
Thank you.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Very well done. Thank you.
I want to thank the witnesses for coming and presenting to us, and for all of your vast knowledge on the very complex issue and the questions.
I also want to thank Monsieur Barraud for sitting here so patiently during these meetings, ready to help us if we needed him. Thank you, Monsieur Barraud.
I also want to make one point as a chair.
I think you heard that we now have seven-year-olds exposed to this kind of information. I was talking to one of our witnesses last week, and she said that means we're going to have a whole lot of new young generations that are going to become involved in this at a very early age. We have to think about that down the road. It isn't just that they're going to be victims; they may be perpetrators. I think it's an interesting question to ask. We have these two meetings. Would that we could have had longer, because it's a very important and interesting subject.
Thank you again very much for coming.
I'm going to suspend so we can go in camera. Thank you.
[Proceedings continue in camera]