Environment Committee on June 11th, 2024

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Kanigan, my colleague, Mrs. Chatel, asked you the question I had for you.

A number of people who testified as part of our study have talked to us about integrated watershed management. Your practices have been described as exemplary. The Northwest Territories and Yukon have renewed their commitments to jointly managing and monitoring watersheds that straddle the Yukon and the Northwest Territories border. I'm impressed by these long-term highly collaborative commitments.

In your opinion, will the arrival of the Canada Water Agency have a positive or negative impact on your management?

[Julian Kanigan]

I think the governments of the territories are perhaps in a different situation from provinces, as I described at the beginning of my presentation, in that the federal government has devolved certain functions, but there are other functions that are still held by the federal government. We do rely very much, because of these small populations and a low tax base, on federal funding. We really see a Canada water agency and a freshwater action plan as an opportunity for us to collaborate with federal government partners to achieve some of the objectives that we and our indigenous government partners would like to do.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

If I understand correctly, you're still taking a collaborative approach.

Mr. Kanigan, you mentioned the oil sands. However, Alberta says that it is currently at water shortage management stage 4 out of 5. Some rivers have severe water shortages.

Does that affect you?

[Julian Kanigan]

As I mentioned, we do have a transboundary water agreement with Alberta. One of the key pieces of that agreement is about how we share water and what the triggers or the objectives are for when that water quantity is lower and may be impacting the ecological integrity of the aquatic ecosystem.

We're working through one of those processes right now. We have low water levels in the Mackenzie basin, and, for example, there are low water levels in the Hay River basin, which is a shared basin. We'll collaboratively move forward to understand what those interests are.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Good. Thank you.

Ms. Zarrillo, go ahead, please.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much. I'm going to carry on asking Mr. Kanigan some questions.

I wanted to go back to climate change, as it was mentioned today, and I would like to add to my question about groundwater, too. My NDP colleagues, including Laurel Collins from this committee, have been advocating for putting stronger freshwater protections in place to help prevent wildfires.

Could you please share with us here on committee what stronger freshwater and groundwater protections would mean for the Northwest Territories?

[Julian Kanigan]

One of the key learnings for me over the past number of years is that the drought we're currently experiencing in the Northwest Territories isn't related to water use. It's more about climate change. It's more about something that we've never seen before, which is a meteorological system that's over the entire basin. These drought codes that we're seeing are related to climate more than usage of water. We're seeing the water being passed across the border and into our jurisdiction. What we need to do is think more about climate change and how we will adapt to that in our management.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Do you see a role for the federal government to help in understanding and proactively preparing for this? I'm thinking even about natural infrastructure. Where can the Government of Canada and the new water agency assist in understanding this and helping with prevention?

[Julian Kanigan]

There are so many ways. I think one really clear way is this new regime whereby we have extreme variability; it's really hard to predict from year to year what's going to happen. We need new tools and new modelling to indicate what those conditions are going to be in the near and medium term, so we can better plan.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Are there experts out there? Are there countries or are there governments ahead of this that we could be looking to here in Canada?

[Julian Kanigan]

The Government of Northwest Territories is currently working with researchers at the University of Calgary to look at the current regime in the Mackenzie River basin. I know there are other experts within the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Deltell, go ahead, please.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, everyone. I'm very pleased with your participation in our great country, I must say. I agree with my colleagues that it's always a great pleasure to talk to people who live in the territories.

I had the pleasure and privilege of going to Yukon and the Northwest Territories. When I arrived in Yellowknife, I was told not to talk about Whitehorse. When I went to Whitehorse, I was told not to talk about Yellowknife. I immediately understood that, even in such a big space, there might be a little friction between two entities. As a guy from Quebec City, I definitely get that, especially when I think of my friends in Montreal.

Let's get back to a much more serious and important topic that was addressed earlier by one of my colleagues, Mr. Kram: hydroelectricity needs for major projects in the Yukon.

My questions are for the Government of Yukon representatives, Heather Jirousek and Brendan Mulligan.

Do you think Yukon might need energy from British Columbia? Is it possible to have exchanges or to allow entities in British Columbia to provide energy, and therefore electricity, to Yukon?

[Heather Jirousek]

I'll have to get back to the committee on this. This isn't an area we can speak to.

Yukon Energy, working together with.... There is another branch within the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources that works on this collaboratively, so we could certainly provide something back, but it's not anything that we're able to speak to. I'm sorry.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

We also know that, some years ago, the federal government used Bill C‑69 to give itself the power to veto hydroelectric projects.

Of course that's a huge concern in Quebec because, over the decades and over the past century, we've developed lots and lots of dams, all without having to ask or beg for federal authorization. The results have been spectacular. We're world-renowned. We understand that your situation is different because you're territories, but even so, you've had the necessary authority to act autonomously since 2001 and 2014.

If by chance you needed access to hydroelectricity, could Bill C‑69 get in your way, even though we know it's not necessarily the best place to build hydroelectric plants?

[Heather Jirousek]

I'm sorry. I wasn't quite clear on the end of that translation.

Again, anything related to hydroelectricity.... Certainly we have hydro projects right now being renewed. They go through licensing and assessment.

I'm not familiar with the bill you're referring to.

Again, I'm sorry. I'm not able to answer that question.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

My last question will be for all of you.

We have to keep the first nations in mind all the time when we build something, when we talk about the future and when we talk about the water.

In your territories, you have more first nations compared to the allochtone people than in other provinces. In Quebec, yes, we have first nations, but not as many as you have, compared to the number of allochtone that we have in our province.

How do you deal with that? Also, how can you reach out in great agreement with a win-win partnership and partnership in prosperity? How do you get that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Who would like to take that?

[Heather Jirousek]

I'm happy to start on that.

Certainly, there are the environmental assessment, regulatory reviews and opportunities to provide input through that process. Maybe I can touch on areas that we are responsible for.

As an example, we're working together with the Northwest Territories and British Columbia right now. We have a bilateral management agreement on water. This is under the Mackenzie River Basin Board umbrella. We're developing a learning plan on the Liard River.

In doing so, we're working together with elders who have knowledge of water. We have contracted an elder who has expertise in this area. He has developed a land and peoples relationship model. His name is Joe Copper Jack. He has done this process in the Liard basin, where he has done an elders' circle collecting knowledge about water from the basin.

Bringing that into our processes, like land use planning and water planning, we're doing a learning plan on the Liard River. Before we do the western knowledge side of it, we're also finding out what knowledge is out there on water from an indigenous perspective and we're bringing that into the process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Last but not least, we have Mr. Ali for five minutes.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today for this very important study.

My question is for the official from Alberta.

As we all know, Alberta is currently seeing its worst drought in 40 years. What role does your department believe climate change is playing in the current drought? Can you expand on that, please?

[Kate Rich]

In the prairie provinces, we have had droughts before. We see severity and frequency issues. We have acknowledged that we see the need to integrate monitoring for a changing climate and its impact not only on water and drought but also on other systems throughout the province.

I believe there's acknowledgement of a linkage.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

What role do you believe the Canada water agency can have in ensuring we're prepared for the impacts climate change is having on our freshwater resources?

[Kate Rich]

This probably relates to similar things you've heard from others. It's about deepening our understanding of our supplies like groundwater and surface water with respect to a changing climate or other influences, whether it's growing demand or looking at efficiencies and other pieces there.

We see that we are continuing to invest in droughts, floods, groundwater mapping and lots of infrastructure as we think about a changing climate. As I noted, we think the Canada water agency has a role in bringing forward some sustained funding for infrastructure, science and other pieces.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I'll ask a similar question of the Government of Northwest Territories official.

In your view, what role do you believe the Canada water agency can have in a Northwest Territories context?