Information & Ethics Committee on June 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 124 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Before we begin, I want to remind everybody about the earpieces. Make sure you put them in the proper places. That way we can avoid potential injury to our interpreters.

When we last left our superheroes—that was last Tuesday—the committee will recall that a motion was passed to invite.... Well, first of all, Stephen Anderson was invited, as well as Kirsten Poon. Within the motion, there was also the request for “records, text messages, [emails, etc.,] iMessages...instant messages”, etc., for Stephen Anderson and Randy Boissonnault.

I just want to update the committee on where we are. I can tell you that immediately following that meeting there were invitations that were sent to Ms. Poon and Mr. Anderson. There was a lot of back-and-forth that went on between the clerk and the two invitees. Unfortunately, they declined the committee's request. I tried to get them here today. We tried to get them here this morning.

Subsequent to that, I asked the clerk to make available additional time on Wednesday evening, and then, of course, on Thursday morning, we have another meeting of the committee scheduled. At this point, we heard back from Ms. Poon—and that correspondence was sent to the committee members this morning—that she is available the week of July 15.

Up to this point, on the subsequent invitation, we haven't heard back from Mr. Anderson, but the message we heard from Mr. Anderson last week was that he felt it was short notice, that he was out of the country and that he would be available at some point in July. I'm not certain when that point might be, but it's at some point in July.

That's the status of the invitations for the witnesses right now. As I mentioned earlier, the committee did receive correspondence this morning—it was distributed after it was translated—that Ms. Poon is available the week of July 15. There is still no indication with regard to Mr. Anderson at this point, other than that he is available in July.

With respect to the phone records, the committee will recall that the motion did state “within 7 days of [the] motion being adopted”. This is the seventh day, and it certainly wasn't to the hour. My expectation is that we are going to get phone records—as requested by the committee—text messages, iMessages, instant messages, call logs, etc., by some point today. This morning, the clerk was in touch with representatives of the minister, and he expects that this will be available to the committee by later today. We still have not heard anything from Mr. Anderson, except for last week, when he indicated that it should not be a problem for him to meet the request of the committee based on the motion that was passed.

Madam Clerk, if I'm missing anything.... I think that pretty much gets us up to date on where we are.

I certainly need some direction from committee on where you want to go, given the information that we received this morning and the additional information that I've just given you. As I said, there was a lot of back-and-forth over the last week to try to accommodate the witnesses appearing today.

Mr. Barrett, I saw your hand up first.

Go ahead, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to move:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee summons the following witnesses to appear before the committee for no less than one hour together, during the week of July 15:

a) Kirsten Poon — Navis Group

b) Stephen Anderson — Global Health Imports

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett. The motion is in order.

I have Mr. Green on the motion.

Do you want to say anything?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes.

Just very quickly, Chair, in your explanation this morning about both witnesses, we learned that Mr. Anderson is not available until July and Ms. Poon is available that week in July. To be consistent with the initial motion that was passed by the committee, I'm not looking to relitigate the length of time. I think both witnesses should appear for an hour independently of one another, an hour for Ms. Poon and an hour for Mr. Anderson, but that was not the will of the committee at the previous meeting, so I won't relitigate that.

This will be the committee's last substantive opportunity to plan and to get some answers on this question. Having both Ms. Poon and Mr. Anderson with an obligation to appear that week, knowing that they both have July availability, when members' availability will be limited during the month of July, when they have not previously planned time in Ottawa, it is incredibly important to get answers to questions that have been dogging this committee for weeks now. We need to find out who the other Randy is, what Minister Randy Boissonnault's involvement was with Global Health Imports while he was serving as a minister, and, of course, what his ongoing interests are with Navis Group, a lobbying firm that lobbied his government and from which he was receiving payments while serving in cabinet.

This is an opportunity to do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

I've started a list. I have Mr. Green next.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Then I have Mr. Fisher and Ms. Damoff.

Go ahead, Mr. Green, on the motion that Mr. Barrett just moved.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Certainly, members around the table are very well aware of my feelings about arbitrary meetings in non-sitting times. I would caveat it by saying that this isn't arbitrary, given the fact that Ms. Poon herself volunteered to be here on the 15th.

Notwithstanding the fact that we have to respect that, I would ask you this, Mr. Chair. I see that you're getting some direction from the clerk, but I'm unclear, on the escalation of inviting witnesses, that a summons is particularly necessary. I know it fits a certain dramatic theme in communications, but given that they have not put in writing, or we have not received in writing, a refusal, but are volunteering to come here, I think the language of a summons, although it may suit certain communication styles, isn't necessary.

I'm wondering, through you, Mr. Chair, to the mover of the motion, what the intention is of using the language of a summons. I'll say on the record that I believe we have the power to summons anybody, but I think it's a professional courtesy, in working with witnesses, to find an available time and escalate in a manner that is consistent with their agreement to participate. This witness has not refused to come to committee.

I'm wondering if the mover of the motion would be open to and consider just removing the term “summons” and continue with the language “invite” until such time as the witness decides they're going to send us, in writing, a refusal.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You have a point of order, Mr. Barrett, and I believe Mr. Green asked a question through the chair. I know that the clerk has some information that she wants to share with the committee.

Go ahead on the point of order.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The motion I moved is different from the motion I provided in writing to the clerk, which was circulated to members of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

In the motion I moved, I said, following the word “together”, that it was “the week of July 15”, not on July 15.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I wanted to provide that latitude.

When the chair will allow, I'll respond to Mr. Green.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That was one of the things the clerk had brought to my attention.

Just so we're clear, it's the week of July 15.

Mr. Villemure, do you have a point of order?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

The French and English versions are different. The French version is more in tune with the spirit of Mr. Green's intentions, while the English version is harsher.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

It's simply a matter of aligning the languages.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay. Thank you.

The clerk may be able to fix this.

Mr. Fisher, are you looking to have the motion in front of you? Is that what you'd like?

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Yes. I'd like to get that printed so that I can take a quick look.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I am going to suspend for a couple of minutes so the clerk can get the motion to members of the committee.

We are suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Welcome back.

The email with the motion has been sent in both languages to all members of the committee. There are a couple of things that I note would need to be clarified within the motion.

Somebody needs to add, “further to the motion that was passed”. It needs to be added to this so we are clear on the direction of the committee.

The other thing is “the week of July 15”. I'm going to need a year, because we all know words matter. We're in the year 2024. If we leave it open-ended, it is open to interpretation. I want to make sure that's clarified.

Mr. Green, when we left, you still had the floor, sir.

Go ahead.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to make one note as it relates to the spirit of the motion that was originally passed. You stated that we need to add an amendment: “further to the motion that was passed”.

If you recall, I believe the motion that was passed suggested the witnesses meet together.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Yes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

For me, whether they're together.... Does this say that as well?

It's “one hour together”. Okay. That's good.

I will then move that the motion be amended by adding the words “further to the motion that was passed”, replacing the word “summon” with the word “invite” and adding “2024” after the words “July 15”.