Fisheries Committee on May 1st, 2023

[Jennifer Buie]

It's for cod.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

For my closing question, what could you recommend to the committee that government must do differently to see the results that other jurisdictions, such as Norway, have? We keep getting pointed to models where they've had a successful balance.

Something that concerned me—it was in your statement as well—was that a management tool of DFO is not to reduce herds. That concerns me as an east coast politician, as I know we've had clearly documented dramatic growth in the seal herd in Atlantic Canada. I don't think anybody is disputing the fact that it's having an impact on fish stocks and that it could eventually move into fish stocks where it is not currently, such as lobster and crab. They will eat them. We're also told that when they run out of one food source, they will move to another.

I'm a bit puzzled as to why DFO does not have a management tool to reduce a herd that is having an obvious and negative impact when other jurisdictions do.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens.

Somebody is telling me that a vote has been called. Do we know if they're 30-minute bells?

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

They're 30 minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

With the permission of the committee, we'll continue on, and we'll stop our time long before the vote comes up. Anyone can do it by phone or whatever. Not only are there 30-minute bells, but there's a 10-minute voting time frame as well if we're doing it on our phones. We'll continue on as per normal.

It's over to you, Madame Desbiens, for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Buie, you said earlier that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, or DFO, ensures that the fisheries in Canada and Quebec remain productive.

If we do nothing to control fish stocks and balance the relationship between predator and prey, how can we ensure that the fisheries will remain productive, and do it ethically and sustainably, since that's our primary concern?

[Jennifer Buie]

In terms of assuring productivity, that is part of our precautionary approach to fisheries management. We want to ensure that the stocks are continually being maintained in a healthy state to ensure that we can harvest them in a sustainable manner.

As I mentioned earlier, something we're looking at and starting to use more in our fishery management decisions is the ecosystem approach to fisheries management, whereby we're looking at this on a bit of a grander scale. We don't yet have the tools to manage fisheries in that fashion, and we continue to use our sustainable fisheries framework as the foundation on which fisheries management decisions are made.

That will be one way in the future, once we get further scientific evidence and once we understand those relationships within the ecosystem...because they're quite complex. We don't understand what the interplay is between some of those species. If one is removed, what will happen? Will another species come and take its place? We just don't know. That's why we really rely on the scientific information of today, what we have, in order to make sound, robust decisions about our fisheries.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Do you feel you have enough data and measurements at this time? Would having more help you?

[Jennifer Buie]

Based on our sustainable fisheries framework, we have the information to manage seals for a sustainable harvest. However, I mentioned all of those facets of how to manage at an ecosystem level, and that is where we would rely more on needed scientific evidence of where those relationships are in the ecosystem.

As a department, we're starting to explore that as a management tool, but we're not there yet.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

We've heard from many people here that it's urgent action be taken. We're seeing mackerel dwindle, herring, some fisheries are shut down. Folks have confirmed to us that they have found pinnipeds are even eating lobster.

The urgency factor, is that a variable you can't avoid considering in the current situation?

[Jennifer Buie]

I will turn back to some of my opening remarks about putting out a call for proposals on science, and maybe I can turn to my colleague here to speak to it. That's part of the progression forward to understand better some of the, perhaps, science needs we have in order to develop a better system for understanding what role seals are playing in the ecosystem.

Perhaps I can turn to my colleague for further details.

[Simon Nadeau]

Thank you for this question.

Last fall, we issued a call for proposals. Twenty-five projects were proposed with the goal of increasing scientific input to study the role of seals in the ecosystem. We're finalizing approval of these projects and we will announce them soon.

We're also conducting a new project this year that will quantify the impact of grey seals in various Atlantic fisheries management areas. Using the ecosystem approach that Ms. Buie was talking about, we're looking to better understand pinniped predation's impact on cod on the Scotian Shelf.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Can you put forward some sort of time frame for the application of this new data to come up with concrete results so we can tell our fishers not to be overly alarmed, or on the contrary, to be more alarmed?

[Simon Nadeau]

The concrete results come more from the management side of things. The scientific work remains unfinished. Science is improving all the time and ecosystem conditions are changing as well, so we have to consider that. What was prevalent 20 years ago is not what's prevalent now or what will be prevalent in 20 years. Let's say we're still racing to reach our target, but we're continuing our work and undertaking new projects to better understand the role of seals in the ecosystem.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

That said, you can't give me a time frame, can you?

[Simon Nadeau]

No, we can't give you a time frame as such, I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Mr. Bachrach for six minutes or less, please.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses. This is a very interesting topic.

My questions focus mostly on British Columbia because that's where I'm from, and obviously I have a particular interest in the situation there. Hearing the contrast between your testimony and that of Dr. Walters I think is interesting to the committee.

I'm curious. You've highlighted the lack of conclusive evidence pointing toward pinnipeds—if I wrote it down correctly—as the “key driver” of west coast salmon declines. What key data is missing to inform that question?

[Andrew Thomson, Regional Director, Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

I'll take that question.

I'm Andrew Thomson, the regional director of science for the Pacific region.

We continue to do, I would say, a multivariate study on the key factors for particular salmon stocks. We have one going on right now for west coast Vancouver Island chinook to assist in understanding rebuilding plans for them. There is a wide variety of research avenues in which we're trying to understand what the drivers are for some of our salmon populations and their decline.

As Dr. Walters said earlier, the Cowichan River is a good example where habitat impact was one of the key drivers for that particular stock. That tends to be variable depending on the stock, depending on the area and, of course, depending on the life history of the salmon.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Thomson.

I'm curious about various assertions regarding the population abundance of pinnipeds. You indicated that you're doing research on drivers of salmon abundance.

When it comes to the abundance of pinnipeds, we have heard the view that there are as many as two times the pinnipeds now as there have been historically. We have heard another view—or there's certainly another view out there—that pinnipeds in British Columbia are recovering to historic levels.

What do the peer-reviewed studies indicate when it comes to pinniped density and abundance?

[Andrew Thomson]

In the department, we have conducted aerial surveys of pinniped populations since the 1970s. Currently, our estimate from 2019 for harbour seals is about 85,000 harbour seals in British Columbia. That's slightly down from the peak of over 100,000 in the early 2000s.

Similarly, we're seeing about 43,200 Steller's sea lions. That is an increase over 2013, but it has been relatively stable since 2017. There's an estimate of about 13,600 California sea lions, which, again, is an increase since the 2009 survey but not a significant increase since 2017.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Does DFO have any comparison to historic population abundance for seals and sea lions on the B.C. coast?

[Andrew Thomson]

As I understand it, the historic population from the 1960s was also around 100,000 for harbour seals. I don't have the data in front of me for the others, but we have some past surveys.

Of course, we have been trying to bring greater rigour to our survey methodology through these aerial surveys we have been conducting since the 1970s.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

For the RFP that has been put out for additional research on these topics, what proportion of the proposals dealt with the west coast versus the east coast?

[Andrew Thomson]

I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but maybe one of my colleagues does. I understand that a number of proposals have come forward from the west coast from both universities and indigenous groups. I have seen some of those proposals.