Fisheries Committee on May 1st, 2023

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I will try to ask this a bit more pointedly. On the west coast, what are the key questions we need to answer?

[Andrew Thomson]

There are a lot of questions we're still looking at, both within DFO and I think with others, in trying to understand what the ecosystem impacts of pinniped predation are. As we know, pinnipeds obviously consume salmon. That's not an issue of debate. It's about the proportion of salmon they consume and whether or not they are consuming other predators of salmon. For instance, the majority of seals consume more hake than they do salmon. Hake, as we know, is a predator of juvenile salmon, so we're trying to understand that ecosystem effect.

We're also looking at the way we conduct these studies. We're moving from just scat analysis of seals to more fatty acid analysis that might give us a longer time frame of the data, not just a single point of data.

There are multiple avenues we're pursuing to try to get a much better understanding of the role of seals and pinnipeds generally in British Columbia and their potential impact on salmon populations and other populations within the ecosystem.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Thomson.

My understanding is that DFO, historically, has targeted marine mammals. Maybe I'm incorrect with that assertion.

In past management approaches, has there been an effort from DFO historically to control marine mammal populations, and how has that worked out?

[Andrew Thomson]

In the long history past, prior to the 1960s and in the 1960s, as I understand it, some cull programs were tried. I don't have all the data of those programs in the distant past.

I think the most recent example would be from 1997 to 1998. There was a cull of 55 seals in the Puntledge River, which was conducted by the department. It looked at seals that were consuming salmon in that area.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

We will now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Buie.

In 2020, legislation was brought in by the current government to outlaw the euthanasia of nuisance pinnipeds because our seafood markets were being threatened under the MMPA. Norway is the number two supplier of seafood to the United States. Today, we had a Norwegian scientist here telling us that their management of marine mammals, seals and whales has no impact on their trade relations with the U.S. They have a policy of automatic euthanasia of seals in rivers, estuaries and aquaculture facilities.

Why is your department so fearful of the MMPA bogeyman versus Norway's fearlessness towards that threat?

[Jennifer Buie]

Part of the consideration is that the MMPA does not outlaw our regulated commercial seal hunt. It affects only the unintentional killing of marine mammals as we undertake other commercial fishing activities.

In terms of our seal hunt, there is no question that the MMPA does not apply. We can continue with a well-regulated seal hunt that has a very large total allowable catch, and we can continue to export our more lucrative seafood products, such as lobster and crab, to the U.S.

I can't speak to Norway's position, but we continue to manage our seal hunt the way we are.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

To the same witness, as a follow-up to that, the United States has allowed the culling of sea lions—and we're not suggesting the culling of seals—on the Columbia River. It's over 9,000 animals, as we've heard at this committee, and they've seen a return of the Pacific salmon. They've actually done something that has resulted in change and the restoration of stock.

Your answers so far have been that you don't have enough information, so you'll just do the status quo and not do anything until you have more and more science. You have about 30 years of science, and I can go over some of that with you if you'd like, but why is it that a do-nothing strategy will show us some way forward and an actual action strategy of trying something will not?

[Jennifer Buie]

We do have an action strategy, and that strategy is to get the scientific information we need in order to undertake another avenue. So far, as I mentioned, the only direct evidence we have of the impact of predation is with grey seals on cod in the southern gulf.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

A DFO scientist said a few years ago that they will be extinct if we don't do anything, yet nothing has happened. DFO has not done anything to deal with that issue.

Earlier in your testimony, you said there's no evidence they even eat cod. Well, I can give you lots of pictures of seals eating cod. There's tons of evidence. There are commissions going back to the 1990s. In fact, in 1995, former fisheries minister Brian Tobin said the only one still fishing cod was named “harp” and “seal”.

There are Fisheries Council reports, scientific reports done for DFO, going back as far as the 1990s, yet you, as the manager of seals, say only that we need to leave them alone and we need to do more study. We've had 30 years of scientific studies.

I have, right here, 122 pages of DFO work on seal stomach samples that have been done all over Atlantic Canada in only five years. There's no excuse right now for DFO to continue to say it needs more evidence. There's lots of evidence. I don't know why the department won't do what's been done in the United States under the Marine Mammal Protection Act to try to restore the biodiversity balance in the Columbia River. Why won't you take the same approach here?

[Jennifer Buie]

I think in the Canadian context we have a very robust and open total allowable catch for harps. The question is, if we could take out a number of harp seals—for example, up to 425,000 harps a year—there could be, but I don't know for sure, an impact on the population of harp seals. However, there is no market available to our Canadian sealers—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's because the government won't do anything about it. The government doesn't promote it. The government doesn't protect the industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Perkins, you're now over time.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less to finish up, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thought the time was expired.

To continue in the same vein as my colleagues, you senior officials often use the following excuse: You say that if we do things incorrectly and have a seal hunt or take any other action to reduce the seal population, that could affect other markets, like crab or lobster. That seems to be the easy way out. Is that what's bothering you? Is that the only reason we don't dare move forward with more stringent control of the seal population?

I'd like a brief response to this question.

[Jennifer Buie]

I know I'm sounding repetitive, but again, where there is scientific evidence that promotes a healthy and abundant seal population, we manage this species for a commercial seal harvest. There is an active harvest. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we saw that this year, there was an increase in landings of up to 9.5% compared to previous years.

I think the position of the department has always been that we are supportive of harvesters' interests in the seal hunt.

Perhaps I can quickly turn to my colleague in the Magdalen Islands, Monsieur Arseneau, to speak to the importance of the seal harvest to a community in the Magdalen Islands.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay, but first I'd like to ask another question, which perhaps you can answer, Mr. Arseneau, since we've already heard from other witnesses from the Magdalen Islands.

All the witnesses who have come before the committee, with the exception of the scientists from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, have said that seal overpopulation was having an impact on the ecosystems. Now, they want to do more to reduce the population so that it doesn't affect their ecosystems, but we always seem to be going in circles. The excuse is that it could be harmful to our markets or that we need a healthy seal population. We already have a healthy seal population. It feels like we're going in circles.

What's your perspective on this?

[Cédric Arseneau, Director, Magdalen Islands Area, Québec Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

I'd like to thank the member for his question.

The issue of commercial hunting is a bit tricky. That's kind of the problem with the approach. You can't develop a market for seals if that fishery is not properly controlled. To control it properly, you have to work with the industry to use the right harvesting and slaughtering methods, and then you can go out and sell that meat in the different markets that are available.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I have one last question for the officials.

Have you been talking to the United States about ways to hunt seals that would help us reduce the seal population so that they don't harm ecosystems in the future? Are you talking to your partners in the United States? When was the last time you had a discussion about this?

[Jennifer Buie]

We are in constant contact with our U.S. counterparts on a number of fronts, including with regard to their Marine Mammal Protection Act. We are waiting for the comparability findings that should be coming out at the end of the year.

On this front, we're constantly talking about marine mammals in the context of, for example, North Atlantic right whales and the impact of their unintentional entanglement in Canadian waters due to Canadian fisheries. While we may not be talking specifically about pinnipeds, I think that once we get the comparability findings at the end of this year, we'll continue discussions with them around marine mammals.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

I want to say thank you to the witnesses for once again appearing before our committee and answering questions, and for making themselves available to be here in person and by video conference.

That concludes this particular meeting.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Before you conclude the meeting, Mr. Chair, I'd like it clarified that the motion was passed that we do two meetings—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

It's two meetings, yes. That's done. I said when we were voting on it that it's for two meetings, and everybody was fine with that, just not the composition of those two meetings.

On Thursday, we will provide drafting instructions to the analysts for the report on pinnipeds and we will discuss committee business, including potential committee travel during the July to December period. The deadline to submit travel budgets for this period is Friday, May 19.

To give the clerk and logistics officers sufficient time to prepare a budget, I would ask members who wish to put forth a travel proposal to come to Thursday's meeting prepared with details on the cities and regions to visit, the dates and duration of the trip, and the format of the meetings we would hold.

If anyone has any questions regarding this process, please contact the clerk.

Go ahead, Mr. Morrissey.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Chair, to clarify, on the questions that were asked, could the witness provide the answers in writing to the committee, because they didn't get a chance on a number of them?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes, definitely.

Hearing nothing else, the meeting is adjourned.