Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm going to interrupt. We have only about five seconds. Perhaps you can respond to the question in writing to the committee.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Yes, unfortunately, if there’s not enough time, that’s what we will do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

If you don't mind my asking, Mrs. Vignola brought up and you commented on testing the NextGen. Are you able provide to the committee what departments you're testing on, what the error rate is and how many employees per department are part of the test?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Yes, and that's aligned with what MP Block asked earlier.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

We go to Mr. Bachrach, please, for two and a half.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, your comments about ensuring that public properties are used for the community good, particularly affordable housing, made me think of a public property, a federally owned property, in Sandspit on Haida Gwaii, where Transport Canada owns the Sandspit Inn. It's been sitting empty for a number of years now, and the community would very much like that property to be dedicated to community use, either as a hotel, as it was formerly, or as affordable housing.

My understanding of the divestiture process is that, eventually, properties like that go up for bids from whoever. I wonder if you can lay out how the process for divesting of public properties is going to prioritize community uses, especially housing. Since your government brought forward this strategy for creating affordable housing, how have you changed the processes for divestment and development of public lands and properties in order to ensure that it doesn't get sold to, simply, the highest bidder?

I think that's probably clearly articulated enough for you to provide some kind of answer.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Yes, it's very well articulated. I call that the “Triple P”: the places, the partners and the purpose.

The places, we first need to have an inventory of them. Fortunately, there is already a partial inventory ready and available, but in the next few months there will be a lot more available, not only existing of surplus properties but of properties that could be surplus, if we were able to use office space differently, for instance, or recognize that there are properties that are not used to their full potential.

The partners...very important. We need to work with community partners, not-for-profit housing partners and private developers, if they can help speed up, obviously, the construction and perhaps the use of those properties.

Then, most importantly, are the purposes for which those properties will be used. Yes, the key purpose is to build affordable homes. These homes have to be affordable for middle-class and lower-income Canadians. Other purposes, including socio-environmental purposes—as we know, we need to protect the environment—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid I have to cut you off there. We're out of time.

We'll have Mr. Genuis next, and then Mr. Sousa will finish this off.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

This committee is reviewing a list of contracts given as part of the indigenous procurement program. Some of these companies do seem to follow the GC Strategies model. That is, they are very small firms based in private homes in Ottawa—not on reserves, but in Ottawa—who advertise a specialty in government contracts management. In other words, they're in the business of simply getting contracts and subcontracting.

Do you think the government should be contracting out to firms who use the GC Strategies model?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

This brings us back to discussions we had on ArriveCAN, several months ago now. As you know, since then, significant measures are starting to be implemented, including assessing supplies—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, could you answer the question? I'm sorry. I have five minutes, and you're not answering the question. Do you think the government should be contracting out to firms who use the GC Strategies model? I'm not talking about ArriveCAN; I'm talking about the model, one where a company just receives contracts and subcontracts without actually working on the project.

Do you think the government should contract to companies who use this model?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I think the ArriveCAN model and the GC Strategies model have been well discussed and much investigated by all sorts of groups and committees and organizations. We have learned important lessons. Those lessons have been shared—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'll give you one more chance to answer the question. It's a yes-or-no question. The record will show whether you answered it or not. Do you think the Government of Canada should contract to companies who simply receive contracts and subcontract? Should the government contract to companies who use this model?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Well, I've just answered the fact—the important fact, as you point out—that the so-called model you just described is a model that has been heavily criticized by the Auditor General and other groups, including this particular committee. Obviously, those lessons have been well understood. Many of those recommendations have already been implemented over—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The question still hasn't been answered, but I have to move on.

There's a particular problem here if the recipients of all or most of those subcontracts are non-indigenous. If you have a small, officially indigenous firm that is simply acting as a broker between the federal government and non-indigenous business, then they're masking the fact that actually, indigenous peoples and indigenous businesses are not getting the final business at the end of the day.

Is there an expectation or a requirement that some percentage of subcontracts also goes to indigenous firms?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's exactly what we need to do. We need to make sure that indigenous businesses have access to the procurement opportunities that other Canadians also have. That's why—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Right. Is that at the subcontracting level as well?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

—not only do we have a target of 5% and are moving towards that target, but in some of the departments we have exceeded that target already.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry, Minister. It's specific question. I'd like you to answer it. When a contract goes to an indigenous business that's acting primarily as a broker, is there an expectation that a certain percentage of the subcontracts goes to indigenous businesses?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

There are rules and regulations and expectations and targets—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

What's that percentage, then?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

—to make sure that indigenous businesses have their fair share of procurement opportunities.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

What is the percentage required at the subcontract level?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As you note, and as you well know, I suppose, the target is 5% of indigenous businesses having access to procurement contracts. That's a minimum. This is not the ceiling.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, you're not answering the question. The question is about subcontracts. If a contract goes to an indigenous business as part of that 5%, and that indigenous business then subcontracts to someone else, what percentage of those subcontracts should be indigenous? If 100% of those subcontracts are non-indigenous, maybe there's a problem there. Of that 5%, for the subcontracts, what percentage, if any, must be indigenous?