Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2024

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That is because, as you noted, on March 20 there was also another piece of good news, which was the creation of the office of—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I don't care about the good news, sir.

Of the five to 10 that you identified over two months ago, have any of those companies been referred to the RCMP, yes or no, sir?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As I have said, RCMP matters are RCMP matters.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sir, this is a decision you or your ministry would make to the RCMP. The RCMP on their own don't initiate the investigation based on your internal review. They rely upon your referral.

Again, for the third time, sir, of the five to 10 cases, have any of those been referred to the RCMP?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Again, the March 20 announcement was important. You listened to it carefully, obviously, and you understood it well.

As you also noted, there are investigations on a number of others, the estimate being between five and 10. I am not privy to those conversations.

My job cannot make me politically involved in that type of work because it would be political interference.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

It's not a political decision, sir.

Sir, you indicated that your department had identified five to 10 other cases of suspected fraudulent, criminal activity. This is not a hard question to answer, sir. Surely the investigation that was started over two months ago must be finished by now.

The question is very simple, sir. I will ask it for the fourth time.

Of those five to 10 investigations that your department started, have any of those been referred to the RCMP?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

When that information is known, it will be made public by the RCMP, presumably, or by the integrity—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Can you tell us, sir, with respect, please?

This is not question period, sir. This is committee. This is where we actually hope to get answers from government officials.

The answer, sir, is a yes or no. Did you or a member of your department refer any of those five to 10 cases to the RCMP?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The answer, when it comes and if it comes, will come from independent officers and not political representatives.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, why can't you answer the question?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

MP Brock, you wouldn't want a politician, including yourself, mingling with matters of an ongoing investigation—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sir, you had no problem identifying three—

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

It wouldn't be appropriate. You now this really well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Hold on for one moment, please, both of you. I have a point of order.

I have stopped the clock.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I would appreciate it if my colleague, MP Brock, allowed the minister to finish.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We have brought this up many times. That's not a point of order. We do allow members to have their time. Mr. Brock has been very clear with his questions. I think he and members of this committee deserve a very clear answer.

Minister, go ahead.

Mr. Brock, I'm restarting the clock.

Go ahead.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm going to ask the question, Chair.

Minister, you and Minister Anand had no difficulty identifying three subcontractors that you referred to the RCMP, but now you have great difficulty sharing with parliamentarians and with Canadians whether any of the five to 10 companies that were under review two and a half months ago were referred to the RCMP.

What are you hiding?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's because the independent officers in my department do their jobs with no political interference.

When I become aware at some point, I suppose, of the results of these investigations, we will be able to share those results.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, please.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for rejoining us here at OGGO once again. We always appreciate your coming here and providing your insights and your testimony.

You know, the number one issue that I hear about when I speak with young people in my community, students at the University of Windsor and at St. Clair College and young people who are getting their apprentices completed, is housing. I hear the same thing when I talk to seniors as well; housing is their number one priority.

The previous Conservative government, when it was in power and when the current Conservative Leader of the Opposition was the minister of housing at the time, lost 800,000 low-cost rental apartments. They also eliminated any federal involvement in the co-op housing program. They pulled the federal government out of the business of housing. They're coming back right now with plans. Their plan, if you look at it and delve into it, is to add additional taxes to the construction of rental housing. They also want to withhold critical infrastructure dollars for municipalities wanting to build additional housing.

Now, we the Liberal government have a different plan. We want to build 3.9 million homes in the next number of years. A critical aspect of getting those 3.9 million homes built is converting surplus federal lands into housing. It's a critical piece. It's part of the public lands for homes plan.

I was really excited to see in this budget that the Department of National Defence is working with the Canada Lands Company and other partners to dispose of 14 surplus properties, including one in my hometown in Windsor, which is the HMCS Hunter building right downtown. It's a perfect opportunity to build housing and revitalize our downtown core, because it's important. It's been sitting vacant for years.

I know that you're leading the rapid review of the federal lands portfolio, so I want to ask: Can you share with this committee some of the measures that are being undertaken and led by your department in this rapid review?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Irek.

Let me start perhaps with how you began in noting the Pierre Poilievre not only lost 800,000 low-rent units, but also created only six affordable housing units across the entire country during his entire mandate. That's one affordable home per six million Canadians. You can imagine how difficult it is for people in my province to hear him insult Quebec municipalities by calling them “incompetent” when they are building thousands and thousands of affordable homes with the support of the federal government. That's my little partisan bit.

It's important to provide a better context, as you have done successfully over the last minute.

More important perhaps is: Where are we going? We're building on the work we've done since 2015. To give you an example, we spoke briefly about the Canada Lands Company a moment ago. The Canada Lands Company built approximately 2,400 affordable homes in the last 25 years, half of them since 2015, and it will be double that number in the next five years. We see the accelerated work of making lands and buildings owned by the federal government available to build affordable homes.

I say affordable homes, because the alternative is to sell the land and buildings to the highest bidder and not worry at all about whether the use of those lands and buildings will lead to affordable housing units. No, those federal lands and buildings need to be used for affordable homes as well as for homes that will meet other criteria, social and environmental criteria such as being close to services, being close to transit, serving the needs of the most needy communities and green homes. These are also objectives that you wouldn't be able to achieve if you sold all of that federal property to the highest bidder. We take a different route.

With your leadership in your riding, with the DND property you mentioned, with Canada Post properties elsewhere and with other properties from other departments and properties currently owned by PSPC, we can do a lot of good for middle-class and lower-income families.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much,

Mrs. Vignola, please go ahead for two and a half.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We talked earlier about NextGen, but the announcement mentioned Dayforce. Can you confirm that it’s the same thing and explain why the name changed? Or rather, are they two completely different things, one being the test and the other being the official application?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That’s a good question, Ms. Vignola.

Indeed, there may be some confusion. The English term NextGen corresponds to ProGen in French, for prochaine génération. The concept designates the payroll system’s next generation, which we absolutely must move towards, because Phoenix is not a viable solution for the future. Many systems were considered, including Dayforce, which was tested in several departments and shows promise. We think it really could work well, but before implementing it, there’s definitely a lot of work to be done.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I sincerely hope we won’t end up with a “Phoenix 2.0” system, because that would be a disaster.

I will continue by asking a question about the Quebec City bridge, a jewel in the heritage of our magnificent 400-year-old city. The government announced the acquisition of the bridge. That’s good news.

We’re now talking about $1 billion to rehabilitate the bridge, when it was $400 million just a few years ago.

Over how many years will the billion dollars be invested?

Could we finally, in the very near future, see the Quebec City bridge in its quasi-original splendour? When we go over the Jacques‑Cartier bridge, we realize the huge difference in their condition, while the Quebec City bridge is a UNESCO treasure.

Thank you.