Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2024

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

It's very unprofessional to interrupt me when I'm actually just trying to respond—unbelievable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We are out of time, unfortunately.

However, luckily and fortunately, next up is Mr. Jowhari from the Liberals. You'll have an opportunity to respond, I assume, during his time. Mr. Jowhari, go ahead, sir.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister and officials, welcome to the committee.

Madam Minister, please take as much time as you want to respond. I think it is important. I have questions along the same line of holding the government accountable, but I'm sure you'll notice a different tone. We can ask tough questions in a very respectable way, and I ask my colleagues to do the same.

Thank you, Minister. Go ahead. The floor is yours.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I simply wanted to respond by saying that independent credit rating agencies, like Standard & Poor's for example, have consistently rated our economy and our government's work on the economy with a AAA credit rating. It is not “a nothing”. It is actually an assessment of the fiscal health of our economy. To denigrate the work of those third party analysts about our economy is, simply, to misunderstand the importance of that credit rating.

I will further say that those are economic markers that indicate the fiscal health of a country. At the same time, what we as a government have chosen to do is to actually respond to poverty, to homelessness and to the need in educational institutions to support researchers, masters and doctoral students with supports to feed the pipeline of brilliance and of the AI and digital economies.

There's a clear choice that is being made here between the plan of our government in budget 2024 and the absence of a plan from the opposition: They simply criticize with no actual alternative on the table.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you for that clarification.

Madam Minister, in budget 2024-25 main estimates for the TBS, I see that you're asking $9.3 billion in voted expenditure. When I did a little digging, I realized that's the fifth highest of any federal department. Can you please share the rationale behind this high degree of spending in your department? Can you explain what the initiatives are that this spending is being focused on?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for the question.

These are values that we care deeply about—in particular, creating a diverse, equitable, accessible and inclusive workforce. I highlight the action plan for Black public servants that I announced in February, which provides mental health supports for Black public servants, as well as supports for career development, especially at the Canada School of Public Service.

In addition, we're supporting health and safety through the public service health care plan, strengthening and modernizing the public service through HR-to-pay, enhancing the work environment and reinforcing the values and ethics of the public service, which are also goals of our government and are implemented by Treasury Board.

As I said, we continue to promote and protect both official languages.

We will also bargain in good faith. As I said, we already reached collective agreements with 17 bargaining units, representing 80% of public servants, and we look forward to doing so with the remainder because it is important to negotiate in good faith at the bargaining table.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

I go from the year's focused spending increase now to some refocused government cost-saving, as I would call it. Madam Minister, in your responses you talked about phase one and phase two. With 30 seconds of my time left, can you talk about the priority areas for the second phase of the refocused government spending that you'll be focusing on?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

There is about 20 seconds left now.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

The methodology is currently being undertaken. I will say that we had co-operation and participation from all ministers. The initiative is about examining our budgets. We have to find means to strengthen our spending on priorities, and reallocation of funds from other areas is absolutely necessary. Also, it's not about cutting services that Canadians rely on. We need to ensure that we support the priorities that I've outlined already today. We are examining phase two and we will share more details in the future.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

It's Mrs. Vignola next, then Mr. Bachrach. I'll have to keep exactly to the two and a half, two and a half, five and five, in order to get the minister out at a decent time.

Please go ahead, Mrs. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, my question is about the passage of Bill C‑290, which would better protect public servants who disclose wrongdoing. A task force is studying the issue. I have two questions about the task force's budget.

Has the task force's budget been updated since 2022, and, if so, how? Is the budget considered sufficient, and what is the task force spending money on?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'd like my colleague to give me more details, because I don't know which task force she's talking about.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

In its 2024-25 departmental plan, the Treasury Board Secretariat states that it “will continue to support the task force reviewing the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act”.

Here are my questions. Has the budget for this task force been updated since 2022, and if so, in what ways? Also, what is the task force spending money on?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for your questions.

That was before I became minister. May I provide a written response to the committee? I'd have to look into what's going on with that task force.

I would also like to mention that I am very committed to whistle-blower protections. We supported the private member's bill of the Bloc when it came forward. I'll say, as a general matter, that I'm very supportive of the issue.

On the specific question and the group's activities, I will come back to you with the expenditures, as well.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's a very good question.

I think Ms. Boudreau is back with us Monday. Perhaps she can present us with that information on Monday.

Please be quick, Mrs. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

According to its 2024-25 departmental plan, the Treasury Board Secretariat expects that at least 80% of high-volume government services will meet service standards by March 2025. Personally, I thought that everyone had to meet the service standards once they were set, no exceptions. Maybe I'm too naive. Why does the Treasury Board Secretariat expect only 80% of government services to meet the service standards, and not 100%?

My time is up, so please send us a written answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

[Inaudible—Editor] perhaps in writing, or perhaps on Monday.

Mr. Bachrach, please go ahead, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Minister, I think a lot of Canadians were pretty shocked to discover that this individual, David Yeo, was working for the federal government at DND, while at the same time securing millions of dollars in government contracts. Treasury Board has promised a new risk framework to ensure departments are managing themselves accordingly and avoiding situations like this, where no conflict of interest disclosure was provided and it wasn't flagged by the department or dealt with properly.

Can you talk a little about how this new risk framework, if it had been in place, would have caught this situation and dealt with it appropriately?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Actually, today I published a new manager's guide. This is building on the announcement Jean-Yves Duclos and I made on March 20.

That new manager's guide makes it mandatory for managers to have looked at all alternatives within the public service. Also, there's a requirement to disclose conflicts of interest before a contract is signed. The manager has to attest that no conflict exists. Essentially, that is the difference. There's the requirement to do so in writing, and it has to be done at the time of contracting. You will recall that, with regard to the individual you mentioned, that disclosure was made and caught.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The disclosure was made, but I think it took 150 days after he was hired by the department, when the department's own requirement is that it be disclosed, I believe, within 30 days.

Is that not the case?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

As soon as it was caught, the individual was terminated. I was not actually at defence at the time, but I know Francis is conducting the horizontal audit across government, so he, as the comptroller general, will be able to speak more specifically to that case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Answer very briefly, please.

[Francis Trudel, Associate Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat]

The requirement, as it relates to contracting with the Government of Canada when you are an employee, requires that the actual authority be given by the deputy minister prior to the actual work to be conducted.

It's not 30 days afterwards; it's actually a requirement prior to it.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's under the new rules. Is that correct?