Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2024

[Doug Ettinger]

I haven't seen that one come across my desk yet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

—but I appreciate the one for Mr. Ware. He is an incredible Albertan.

Mrs. Vignola, go ahead, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ettinger, Ms. Fortin and Ms. El‑Hage, thank you very much for being with us.

Time for a reality check. I'm the Bloc Québécois procurement critic, so my colleagues talk to me about problems with Canada Post, whether they're on the North Shore, in the Magdalen Islands, in northern Quebec or even in more central regions, such as Saint-Hyacinthe, which is not exactly back of beyond, unlike the place where I grew up.

Here are some of the issues people have brought to my attention.

De-amalgamated towns have ended up with identical addresses, with the same street name, the same number and the same postal code. Canada Post has simply told them to change the street name. I'm sure you see the problem. I know that, in the past, post offices have burned down, and the service was simply relocated to a neighbouring post office while it was being rebuilt. I'm wondering if there's anything that can be done to fix this problem. It's a problem with the mail, and also with emergency services.

In northern Quebec, there are more people and not enough post office boxes, so two or three families may end up sharing the same box. That's a confidentiality issue.

There are also francophones living in the north who can't get services in their mother tongue, even though—correct me if I'm wrong—that's one of your obligations.

I'm sure you're aware of problems related to shipping medications, particularly on the Lower North Shore, where there's no road, and in the Magdalen Islands, where even things like pencils for school are mailed, because there's no other way. At least, I hope you're aware of that.

Were you aware of those particular issues?

Is Canada Post looking at any solutions to these problems? They may be mundane, but they're very important to the people dealing with them.

[Doug Ettinger]

Thank you very much.

There are two or three questions in there. I appreciate that. I'm going to pass it over to Manon Fortin. Again, she is responsible for operations and she's very close to it.

However, before I do that, I will say again that it's service, service, service. That is our number one priority. That's where the majority of our resources go. We've never had better numbers than those we have right now, but there are areas that can be better.

Manon, it's over to you.

[Manon Fortin]

Thank you for your questions, Ms. Vignola.

Every day, our goal is to provide the best possible service to 17 million addresses all across Canada by means of our 21,000 delivery agents, 3,000 trucks travelling Canadian roads and 5,800 post offices, more than half of which are in rural areas.

We do a good job overall, but, as you pointed out, sometimes there are exceptions. I'm not aware of the Saint-Hyacinthe case specifically, but I'm aware of other problems, not in Saint-Hyacinthe, but in your riding.

We do encounter service interruptions. A post office may burn down, or flights may be cancelled because of bad weather, and medications may not make it to the right place. Every time this happens, we do everything in our power to find a solution with the affected communities. We usually do find solutions.

As to post office boxes, are you talking about the situation in Kuujjuaq?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes.

[Manon Fortin]

Kuujjuaq is a good example. If memory serves, we are short about 20 post office boxes for people. They can be acquired, but we don't have enough space, unfortunately. We're trying to find solutions to make more space. I can assure you that our teams are aware of the situation and are working hard to resolve the issues.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

I just want to say that there are postal services all over the world, and every one of them is facing challenges. Some countries have postal services a lot like ours; others, not so much.

Are you currently looking at how things are done elsewhere with a view to improving our postal services? If so, what approaches are you looking at, and how can they improve our services? How can looking at what other countries are doing improve our services?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Ettinger, before you start your answer, you have only about 20 seconds, so please be brief.

[Doug Ettinger]

Okay.

I deal with the CEOs of most of the postal organizations around the world. We're constantly talking about innovations and what they're doing. One of our biggest challenges in Canada, in a big-picture point of view, is that it's this vast piece of land that we love and have and that has a low population density. It's really a logistics challenge to connect all of that on a daily basis.

I think it's kind of amazing what we're able to do in terms of 17.4 million, but as Manon said, we do make mistakes. We need to hear about those. We will follow up on those accordingly, because we want our customers to be happy, particularly in rural and remote areas. We're committed to that. We've been there all along for the rural areas, and we're going to continue to be there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bachrach, please go ahead, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

Thank you, Mr. Ettinger, for being here. In 1994 the Liberal government promised that no more rural post offices would close. How many rural post offices has Canada Post closed since that time?

[Doug Ettinger]

Look, I joined about five years ago, but I know that a number have closed. I will say this, though—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Do you know the number?

[Doug Ettinger]

Yes. I've heard that 600 have closed in the last 30 years.

Look, our approach on the post offices is that we want to keep them. We don't want to close them. We do everything we can to our goal, and our number one goal is to replace the postmaster. We work with the communities, but sometimes we can't find a solution despite everything. You represent a rural riding in northern B.C., and I appreciate the challenges of all that.

I would say that in the last five years, for example, we've been able to replace 90% of the ones that came up where there was something that happened—the postmaster was retiring or moving away or the lease was terminated or whatever. We've been able to fill 90% of those. Some are outside our control and we can't solve them. In fact, the charter back in 1994 contemplated that there would be some things that would be outside of our control.

Look, we've got more post offices than Tim Hortons and McDonald's combined, and I think—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

But we're losing them all the time. We lost 33 last year. We lost 25 in 2022.

[Doug Ettinger]

Yes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I've been involved in working with your team to try to get post offices re-established. Your team on the ground does good work. But the starting wage for a rural postmaster is $18.44 an hour. The rent that you pay, the stipend, which covers rent, snow removal, insurance and all of these things, is $1,357 a year. Is the fact that Canada Post offers such poor compensation to rural postmasters part of the problem when it comes to recruiting and replacing postmasters? Is that what's driving this disturbing trend of rural post offices closing?

[Doug Ettinger]

Thank you for that question. It's an important question.

Again, we want to remain in rural and remote Canada. We do not want it to be left behind. It's our goal to replace every single one of them. But we shared the salary ranges and so on. It goes as high as $30, depending on the size of the community and the volumes and so on.

But it's worked, although I'm not saying it's perfect. At some point, maybe—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

But it's not working. We're seeing post offices close every single year. Part of the reason they're closing is that Canada Post is not recognizing the importance of those roles with a compensation package that is able to recruit people in rural communities. I don't know many people in rural communities in northern B.C. who are willing to work for $18.44 an hour. These are federal employees who are handling the mail. Like, how is it possible? Where do you get market rent for $1,357 a year?

You know what's happening; those rural postmasters are taking those jobs because they know how vital the post office is to their communities. The information we have is that they're paying out-of-pocket to keep your post offices open. They shouldn't have to hold a bake sale to deliver federal services in rural communities across Canada. This is on your watch. How are you allowing this to happen?

[Doug Ettinger]

I appreciate that. It's a good point.

Again, it's worked over time. I think we've been pretty darn successful in replacing them.

The world has changed. Canada has changed in the last 30 years. What are we now—40 million people versus 25 million? It's hard to attract, get and retain people in rural areas. I think we all know that. It's unfortunate.

Oftentimes we're the last building standing. We really want to stay there. We're not trying to get out of it. I'd like to see....

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I would offer that one of the ways you can attract and retain people is by paying them more than minimum wage.

This challenge has been going on for a long time. We've lost 600 post offices since 1994. Every year the minister sends the person in your role a letter of expectation. Has a minister ever specifically expressed concern about the loss of rural post offices in a letter of expectation?

[Doug Ettinger]

I believe it's been mentioned. I don't have them all top of mind. However, I believe, that in the mandate letters, it's been talked about in terms of rural post offices, absolutely. It's important to me, so it didn't bother me that it was in there. I support it.

By the way, this is all in negotiations right now with the postmasters' union, the CPAA. It would be inappropriate for me to talk any further about it, because those discussions are active as we're talking here.

We're concerned about this. As I said, we want to fill these positions.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The post office in Dease Lake in northern B.C.—a very small community—was closed. Canada Post contracted out the services to the band, and the band is now having to subsidize the operation of the post office to the tune of about $30,000 per year. They want to give that service back to Canada Post. They want Canada Post to reopen the Canada Post post office in that community. Are you willing to do that?

[Doug Ettinger]

Again, I'll just say that this service is very important to us—rural, remote, northern. We're sending, today, 300 charter airplanes into the north every week to service the remote and rural post offices. We're so proud of that. I can tell you that we're probably losing money on every bit of that, but it's the right thing to do, the right thing for Canadians, and we're proud to do it. We're committed to the—