Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I have ruled, Mr. Kusmierczyk. I appreciate what you're trying to do. I've made it very clear. I made it clear to one of your colleagues earlier. I appreciate we don't want to continue with interruptions.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate your taking that into consideration.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Kusie will continue.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, in the main estimates, it stated $46.5 billion was required simply to service our debt. This is in addition to this year's $39.8 billion deficit. Now, in the supplementary estimates, you have come back and asked for another $1.9 billion, as though this $1.9 billion were an oversight to service the national debt.

Why weren't these numbers properly accounted for in your main estimates just a few months ago?

What can we as Canadians expect in the future in terms of further amounts that have not been accounted for as a result of your bad accounting?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Chair, on the issue of poverty, our government, unlike the Conservative government prior to us, has reduced poverty in this country by 22%.

On the issue of the debt, I will say that our government has made a decision to ensure that we have strong fiscal markers, like a AAA credit rating and lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in the G7, while supporting Canadians and ensuring that we have affordable housing supports in place, and dental care available for our population and pharmacare as well.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Minister, why are one in four Canadians skipping meals?

Again, the one in four Canadians who are skipping meals really don't take comfort in these statistics that you are citing here today or in the House of Commons when you are responding in question period.

Minister, in your last announcement on fraud as a result of the "arrive scam" scandal within the Canadian procurement system, you stated that the three individuals you found committing $5 million worth of fraud in contracting were only the first tranche of individuals.

Are you ready today to tell Canadians the number of individuals whom you have determined to be committing fraud and you have now turned over to the RCMP?

Can you give that number, please?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

That issue is within PSPC, but I will say that all fraud is unacceptable and that the RCMP has charge over those cases. If it determines to lay charges, we will be supporting the RCMP in every investigation it undertakes, just as we have done in the past.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, so you don't have a number for us today.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

It is not within my purview.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Can you tell us the total?

It is within your purview. Especially given that you were previously the minister of procurement, you should have an idea as to these numbers.

If you can't tell us how many individuals have been turned over to the RCMP as a result of fraud? Can you at least please tell Canadians how much they have been scammed out of, how much money has been paid out as a result of this fraud?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Actually, Mr. Chair, three individuals, to my knowledge, have been turned over to the RCMP.

Secondly, Mr. Chair, what I am doing at Treasury Board—and this is within my purview actually—is to ensure that we have the policies and the governance in place to ensure that we have better management control over these types of incidents.

Today, I released a new manager's guide with mandatory obligations on directors.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

This is my last question.

You said at the last meeting that you would recoup the money from the "arrive scam" scandal. Can you report to Canadians that you have received that $60 million back for the "arrive scam" scandal?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I can report to Canadians that as soon as the RCMP report comes back on the ArriveCAN issue—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

That's a no.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

—we will follow—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

You promised the last time I saw you that you would get the money back for Canadians.

That's what you said.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I have a point of order.

This is—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

That's what you said, and you are coming here—

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair. Am I able to respond to that witness's question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. Let me interrupt. We have a point of order from Mr. Kusmierczyk.

Go ahead, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'm just asking my colleagues to please respect, again, our interpreters—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Kusmierczyk, if you're going to—

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

—and their health and safety.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I've made it clear. I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I've made it clear that if there's an issue with the interpreters, they will contact our clerk. I would ask you to please stop your interruptions.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It's not an interruption.