Government Operations Committee on June 5th, 2024

[Minh Doan]

Hang on. Let me try to follow that one.

Mr. Chair, I'm trying to answer. What I can say is to express my frustration to the committee, because we're here to talk about facts and evidence. I can't express how tired I was at the time. I can't express how frustrated I am that my entire team worked so hard, and to then have this application—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You know, the problem is that this isn't a question about your feelings or your frustration.

[Minh Doan]

That's what I can't say?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

This is an important issue of the public interest. I'm trying to get an answer from you about what you said in these text messages.

Chair, I would like to ask that the committee instruct the clerk and analysts to prepare a report to the House, which the chair shall table forthwith, outlining the potential breach of privilege concerning Minh Doan's refusal to answer those questions which the committee agreed to put to him, and his prevarication in answering others.

I think it's clear why this is necessary.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I agree.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

This is a debatable motion put forward. I'll start a speaking list.

We'll go to Mrs. Atwin.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I can appreciate what Mr. Genuis is trying to do here, but I do feel that the witness was trying to be as forthcoming as possible. Some of the questions he very clearly answered several times, and then was told that he actually wasn't answering the question as directly as he had been.

I really don't want to see us in another situation where we're calling someone to the bar for admonishment in the House. I think it's quite an embarrassing affair, and I don't think we need to go down that road again. I do think Mr. Doan is being as truthful as he can with us. I actually don't think he has been trying to mislead this committee in any way.

So I wouldn't agree to that. I think he has tried his best in the opportunity that we gave him, which was three hours of grilling.

I wouldn't agree with this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Kusmierczyk.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We listened today as Mr. Doan provided three hours of gruelling testimony. He received tough questions from all members around this committee.

Mr. Doan has appeared here under difficult circumstances. He has shared with us some very personal information regarding his health condition. That should not be taken lightly. He was here for three hours fielding very tough questions from all the members of this committee. I commend him for that. He answered every question to the best of his ability, and forthright. Not only that, he has offered to provide additional evidence and information. Again, he tried and at every occasion was forthright with his answers.

What he didn't provide was that he didn't verbatim repeat...answer questions that the Conservative MPs tried to put in his mouth. That's what we just saw over the last number of rounds of questions. The Conservative MPs were trying to put answers and words in the mouth of Mr. Doan. This motion that's being brought forward is based on the fact that Mr. Doan simply provided his own answer in his own words. For that reason, my colleague from the Conservative side is now taking this next step.

Again, Mr. Doan has been here for three hours answering questions, even though he has been doing this under a very difficult situation.

Furthermore, I think it's important to note as well that to add to the difficulty of how challenging this situation is, there are investigations currently being undertaken right now. We know that the RCMP is active. A number of other investigations are being conducted, internally by CBSA and by other agencies. Again, these are very difficult conditions. Mr. Doan answered every question that came before him during three hours of testimony.

I share my colleague's concern with this next step. I do disagree wholeheartedly with the mis-characterization by my colleague from the Conservative Party that Mr. Doan has been avoiding answering questions here. He's been here for three hours answering those questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Sousa, go ahead, please.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Chair, I just want to reaffirm that we may not necessarily appreciate the responses, but that doesn't mean he's not forthcoming with his response. We may not like to hear and interpret the response, but he is responding and he is making every effort to do so.

I had another five minutes where I was going to continue to pursue it, but I say we put it to a vote. Let's continue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Well, we can't go to a vote while we still have a voting list. I have Mr. Brock, Mrs. Vignola, Mr. Jowhari and Mr. Barrett.

We can go to a vote if everyone wants to give up their time. Otherwise, I will go to Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm withdrawing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Okay.

Mrs. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm withdrawing too. My opinion has already been stated by other members.

I would like to briefly say one thing: The fact that someone does not like the answers does not mean that the person did not answer the questions. They answered. I have pages and pages of notes. We are light years away from what we experienced previously with other witnesses.

That is all I have to say.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Jowhari.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I'm going to withdraw.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I would say a couple of things very quickly with respect to colleagues' comments on Mr. Genuis's motion.

Mr. Doan lied. I don't know if he was lying then or if he's lying now, but there are several examples. I see that everyone's withdrawing so we can bring this to a vote. Let's bring it to a vote.

I read the evidence from a previous appearance by him where he said one thing and then today said the exact opposite thing with respect to saying then that he was in the middle of a competitive process with Treasury Board and today saying he was not. Also, varying answers: He went through a range of answers on whether companies were associated with the presentations in the slide decks: There were no logos, there were no companies associated, they changed over time, they disappeared at some point. Well, which is the answer? We got multiple different answers. This is a problem that we have—

Pardon me?

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

My apologies. Go ahead.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

This is a problem that we have. As parliamentarians, we have come to just accept that people can come before us and they can lie and refuse to answer questions and there's no consequence. Why would anyone come here and tell the truth if there's no consequence for it?

I was absolutely not embarrassed by the questioning of Mr. Firth when he was admonished at the bar. He was found by the House of Commons, Canada's Parliament, to be in contempt. That wasn't a Conservative smear job. That was a failure by that individual. It was a failure of his character. It was a failure of his integrity. He was rightly admonished. The only thing that's a shame is that there weren't more severe consequences for the contempt that individual showed for Canadians, who elected us to come here and to get answers for them.

When we hold people to no standard, then we get no quality from people who are looking to protect themselves instead of being accountable to the people who were sent here by Canadians. We each represent about 100,000 people, and they expect us to be honest and forthright. The same is true for witnesses who come before committee.

The witness today swore an oath and it is black and white: He lied.

He lied. If it's uncomfortable for members of the other parties, if it's uncomfortable for Liberals.... I know that Mr. Kusmierczyk said that it's because Conservatives want to put words in in Mr. Doan's mouth. Well, let's just look at his words, where he said one thing at one meeting and something different at today's meeting: Were you lying then or are you lying now?

That's the binary we're left with, to say nothing of the fact that it's absolutely preposterous, his claim that the data was corrupted on his laptop. It's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. If members of the committee don't feel like it was an attempt to insult their intelligence, take another listen to what he offered.

We should, as a committee, bring someone here from the computer shop down on Rideau Street to tell us why it's absolutely absurd. I'm not going to involve the professionals who work in IT in this building, who would tell you that it's absurd: Control+C, Control+V? You've got to be kidding me—more like “Control+X” and “Delete”.

It's behaviour unbecoming of a public servant, and it's absolutely unacceptable behaviour by a witness coming before a standing committee of a House of Parliament. Does it warrant a conversation by the full House when the privileges of parliamentarians are breached? Absolutely it does, and the remedy is something that should be decided on by the House

I'm absolutely not in the least bit disappointed or ashamed, as other colleagues suggested, about how someone who lied to Canadians was simply asked to answer questions at the bar truthfully and to accept a verbal admonishment.

Also, with respect to the quote-unquote gruelling conditions today: kid gloves, five- and ten-minute breaks and appearing virtually with counsel and he still couldn't even tell the truth.

I'm not sure what Mr. Sousa's comment was. Maybe he wanted to offer us something about his experience with deleted emails in the Ontario legislature, but we can look at court records for that.

I have nothing further to add.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We will go to a recorded vote.

(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 3 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Mr. Sousa, please go ahead.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Minh Doan, are you still there?

[Minh Doan]

Yes, I am.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Do you have any concerns about Mr. MacDonald's or Mr. Utano's conduct with contractors during the early days of the pandemic and during the development of the ArriveCAN app?