Government Operations Committee on June 5th, 2024

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Moving on to another topic, I'm wondering about the processes. My understanding of this conversation is that essentially you had people working under you at CBSA who were responsible for us all sorts of things, but you couldn't really track what they were all doing because there were so many of them, and they were doing so many different things.

For a supervisor, there must be processes and protocols through which you exercise accountability for the work of the people working under you. What processes and accountability systems were in place and did you follow in order to ensure that the people working for you weren't breaching protocols and rules and all of these sorts of things that we've been talking about?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I apologize, but we're past our time. Perhaps we can get back to it in 25 minutes for Mr. Bachrach's next intervention and you can give it some thought, Mr. Doan.

We're now going to go to Mr. Barrett for five minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I want to follow up on Mr. Bains' question.

Chair, does the committee agree to send for the recovery request referred to by Mr. Doan?

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

That's great.

Mr. Doan, I want to be clear about the job you're in now, chief technology officer of Canada.

Did you get that position through a competitive process, yes or no?

[Minh Doan]

No, it was a lateral move.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

It was a lateral move.

[Minh Doan]

When you're looking for a promotion, you have to compete for it. For a lateral move, there's no competition because you're not changing levels.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

So when you went to the Treasury Board, it was a lateral move?

[Minh Doan]

I was an EX 5 at CBSA when I left. That is an executive level. When I moved to the Treasury Board, I stayed an EX 5. I did not change levels.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I don't understand, because when you came before committee in October of last year, my colleague Ms. Kusie asked you this very question. She referred to it as a “substantive process”. But in response, you said, “I was in the middle of a competitive process.”

We've heard your answer today and we heard your answer then. Your answer has changed. I know that the answer is that it was not a competitive process, because we have that testimony from the Treasury Board Secretariat already.

That's very interesting.

Who were your references for that change in jobs? Give us just the names of your references, please.

[Minh Doan]

Catherine Luelo, who was the Government of Canada CIO at the time, made me the offer. Who she consulted and who she asked, I do not know. I presume it would have been my deputy minister at the time.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Who was..?

[Minh Doan]

At the time, it was, when I moved over, Ms. Erin O'Gorman, and she probably would have talked to my previous deputy minister as well, who was John Ossowski.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

This job wasn't publicly advertised?

[Minh Doan]

It was not, to my knowledge, publicly advertised.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay.

You took issue previously with testimony from Mr. Cameron MacDonald that during a phone call you had threatened him. Do you remember refuting that you had threatened him?

[Minh Doan]

I do remember that allegation.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you remember saying that you hadn't threatened him?

[Minh Doan]

He was in a different department. He wasn't even working for me any more. I was calling him—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes or no: Did you threaten him or did you not threaten him?

[Minh Doan]

No, I did not threaten him.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

We know that you have previously been fined for threatening a fellow public servant. Is that correct?

[Minh Doan]

That is incorrect.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

It is incorrect?