Evidence of meeting #62 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was service.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, I have no reason to. Contracting was run by contracting officers and the administrative units of the various departments, including PCO.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I understand that. Did you ever observe anything improper in terms of the contracting units while you were in your position?
4:10 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, of course not.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Perfect.
Certainly, if you had, you would have taken action.
4:10 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Of course.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I'll move away from McKinsey, since, as I understand it, you have no specific knowledge that there was anything irregular with any of the contracts with McKinsey.
Can you talk to us about why somebody owning proprietary information may be a reason for sole-sourcing? That was the issue in a couple of McKinsey contracts.
4:15 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Most management consultants are brought in in the area of management. A good chunk of that, as you heard, is in information management and information technology. But there are other areas, such as business processes, costing, risk management, and service issues like queue management, customer relationships, cybersecurity, protection of privacy. There are all kinds of management and delivery issues. It's quite possible that a firm, which could be very small or could be very large, would have developed processes or techniques that were proprietary. That wouldn't surprise me.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you.
You also had the opportunity to observe the integrity regime that was put in place. Do you have any recommendations related to the integrity regime as it is right now, or at least as it was when you left? I don't think it's markedly...while there have been a few changes. Can you give me an overview of what you think might need to be changed in the current integrity regime that disqualifies certain companies from doing business with Canada?
4:15 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It's not an area of my expertise. I think you might want to talk to former secretaries of the Treasury Board. It's a combination of policy instruments. Transparency has always been the most important thing in Canada—so simply the existence of all the contracts, the proactive disclosure of every contract, which allows Canadians, parliamentarians, journalists and competitors to provide feedback and call out anything they think is untoward. There are officers. There's a procurement ombudsperson who looks at the contracting process. All government contracting is subject to our trade agreements, NAFTA, CETA and TPP, and is watched like a hawk by our trading partners. There are international processes for challenging the awarding of contracts if they are seen to be in any way not fair to bidders, by other countries and so on.
There's a lot there already. I don't have any specific recommendations on how it could be tweaked or improved.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Okay.
Mr. Wernick, I have one last question.
In the contracting processes within the Government of Canada—and, again, I know this is not necessarily your number one area of expertise—in the way we go out to tender, the way we contract, there have been a lot of allegations that have come up. My observation has been that this is undertaken by people who are very serious professionals, with lots of experience in the matter, who really do their best. Has that generally been your viewpoint in watching how the contracting process in the government goes?
4:15 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It's the public servants who are relevant here. There are people who work in contracting and procurement buying goods and services on behalf of Canadians certainly, and for the Government of Canada, and then there are people who are the project managers of whatever those goods and services are going to be used for, and both might get involved. It could be an IT renovation project. It could be a service delivery project. It could be any number of areas. Those are skill sets, they're professions, and that is why I talked about the need for more training.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Wonderful.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you, Mr. Housefather.
We now go to Mrs. Vignola for six minutes, please.
April 24th, 2023 / 4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for your service in the armed forces, Ms. Bonin. It must not have always been simple or easy to make your way there. I think you have had invaluable experiences that were certainly useful to you when it came to doing the study on sexual misconduct in the armed forces.
In your opinion, were there people within the Department of National Defence itself who were capable of conducting a study like the one McKinsey was retained to do?
4:15 p.m.
Managing Director and Partner, As an Individual
In fact, in this case, the request was specifically to use outside resources. That is the reason the armed forces chose McKinsey.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Is Justice Louise Arbour not also considered to be an outside source?
4:15 p.m.
Managing Director and Partner, As an Individual
Yes. In fact, she said in her report that more exhaustive consultations had to be held and the armed forces should consider retaining the necessary resources to do that job.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Do you think the fact that McKinsey did its study in about the same time as Ms. Arbour's amounts to a duplicate expenditure?
4:20 p.m.
Managing Director and Partner, As an Individual
No, because the study done by Ms. Arbour and the work initiated by the Chief Professional Conduct and Culture group related to two different subjects.
The work had been started and the necessary structures put in place, but the department needed help to carry out more exhaustive consultations. The subject addressed by Ms. Arbour was different and involved making recommendations to the Minister of National Defence.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Ms. Arbour was not gentle in her comments about McKinsey's results on the subject. How did you react when you learned about Ms. Arbour's comments concerning your work?
4:20 p.m.
Managing Director and Partner, As an Individual
McKinsey's work is not finished. That work is just a small part of everything being done by the Chief Professional Conduct and Culture group. So I don't think Ms. Arbour was really in a position to form an opinion or have a position regarding McKinsey's work. It may be appropriate to have one later, but for now, the transformation and the work are still underway in conjunction with the leadership of the group, the Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
When Mr. Barton came here, he informed us that once McKinsey leaves an organization, it leaves behind the expertise needed to continue implanting the new culture, the new ways of thinking and acting. What have you done in this regard after submitting of your report to the Department of National Defence?
4:20 p.m.
Managing Director and Partner, As an Individual
In fact, that is a very important and even crucial point, as I talked about in my opening statement. The goal is to provide our clients with very focused expertise and support them so they understand how to continue doing the work. In the case of cultural transformation, that is exactly what we have done. When we presented working sessions or consultation workshops, we were always accompanied by the members of the Canadian Armed Forces who would be responsible for continuing the work.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Are the little sayings we often hear from women, like “boys will always be boys”, still very commonly heard in the Canadian Armed Forces?