Evidence of meeting #62 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was service.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Managing Director and Partner, As an Individual
It is not really my role to talk to you about that. I have my personal experience, but for the purposes of the committee's work, I would advise you to consult other sources instead, such as the outside reports that exist on the subject.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
When the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance presented her budget, she announced that the amounts allocated to consultants would be subject to draconian cuts in the next budget, but this would change absolutely nothing in the quality of the services offered to the public.
Do your contracts aim to improve the quality of services to the public? If so, how do you react to the fact that it has been announced that no more contracts will be awarded, but this will change absolutely nothing in the quality of services?
4:20 p.m.
Managing Director and Partner, As an Individual
There will always be a need for management consultants. As we saw during the pandemic, a large number of them are needed. That may decrease; it will depend on the problems. At the moment, there are a war and a pandemic, for starters. I think it is very hard to know exactly how much will have to be spent for management consulting services. I hope this will not have consequences for services to Canadians.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
First, thank you both for being here at the committee and for your service to Canada in your public life, working for Canada.
I'll start with you, Mr. Wernick, if I could. In your role as Clerk of the Privy Council, and head of the federal public service, was there ever a conversation between you and the Prime Minister, or between you and any minister about using third party contracting services to implement parts of the government's agenda?
4:25 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
There was no specific conversation. There's always a mix of public servants and outside services in just about every initiative by every government.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Was there ever a conversation about the amount that departments were spending on third party contracts to implement promises made by the government?
4:25 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Okay.
For example, in 2015-16, when you were the head of the Privy Council, about $11 million was put out to Deloitte in outsourcing. That grew to $38 million under your watch, and now it's at $206 million. PricewaterhouseCoopers' group is now at $102 million. KPMG is at $45 million.
These numbers have gone up, in some cases, twentyfold and tenfold. Do you have concerns when you see these kinds of numbers growing in outsourcing?
4:25 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I can't speak to anything that happened after April 2019.
I watched the debate and I think some of it is a false debate that suggests there's a teeter-totter where work would be done by the public service or consultants, as if it's a fixed pie. What I read into the numbers is there's more work to go around and that there is more activity and more projects at a faster pace.
The number of public servants has grown, which is a concern to some people, and the use of external contractors has grown, which is a concern to other people.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
4:25 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm extremely concerned about the long-term capacity of the public service. That's what I'm working on and that's what I spoke about in my opening remarks.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
I'd like to hear a bit more about that, actually. If you have suggestions right now for the Government of Canada, I'd love to hear some thoughts on how we could proceed.
4:25 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I would start with this: If you buy into the diagnostic that there's a growing dependency on consultants, then you should be investing in the training of public servants, especially middle and senior managers.
Just anecdotally, way back when I was an assistant deputy minister, I went to MIT. I took the four-day course on IT for non-IT managers. It helped me for quite a while. There are project management skills, risk management skills and all sorts of things.
I would...just as a benchmark, whatever that number is the government is spending on training and leadership development—the PBO could help you benchmark it—double it.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Are you giving advice to any of these companies—McKinsey, Deloitte, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Accenture, KPMG, Ernst & Young, etc.?
4:25 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, I'm a teeny little competitor. I do a few projects for MNP, which is a western Canadian firm.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Okay.
Do you have concerns when you hear that former cabinet ministers, like the Honourable Peter MacKay and the Honourable Pierre Pettigrew,, are now working as senior advisers at Deloitte, and you see these skyrocketing contracts, given they were cabinet ministers?
4:25 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Well, even former cabinet ministers may have some expertise to offer to current governments. That part doesn't trouble me. A lot of them are embedded in Canadian law firms and on retainers and so on.
If the implication is that it affects bidding and contracting, no, I do not have concerns.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
From an optics perspective for Canadians, obviously ministers have knowledge that certainly most members of Parliament wouldn't have, never mind the general public, in terms of access.
Do you have any concerns that they would be privy to knowledge that would help guide these consulting companies to accelerate their opportunities within government?
4:25 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
There are post-employment rules for former public office-holders—both former ministers and former public servants. There are periods in which they cannot be involved in their former responsibilities. There are lobbyist rules, lobbyist registration and there is an Ethics Commissioner.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
4:25 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think former ministers and former public office-holders are always under the scrutiny of the Ethics Commissioner.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Okay.
Do you believe the Government of Canada can achieve an ambitious public policy without having to rely on third party, for-profit companies? These are for-profit companies.
4:25 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No. It's not possible that all of the skill sets and expertise the Government of Canada needs are already embedded in the public service. They have to come in from the practices of other governments, the private sector and the not-for-profit sector.
How else will they come into the public sector, if not through advisory companies?
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
It's just seeing the amount of profits that are made, these are companies are obviously grounded in profits—exceptional profits in come cases.
Do you believe the Government of Canada could reduce these costs by providing more in-house services to save the taxpayers money?
