Evidence of meeting #124 for Health in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was answer.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Eric Costen  Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Health
Jennifer Saxe  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Controlled Substances and Cannabis Branch, Department of Health
Nancy Hamzawi  Executive Vice-President, Public Health Agency of Canada
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Aimée Belmore

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 124 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Health.

Before we begin, I'd like to ask all members and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Please take note of the following preventative measures that are in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

Please use only the black, approved earpiece. The former grey earpiece must no longer be used. Please keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you're not using your earpiece, place it face down on the sticker on the table for that purpose. Thank you, all, for your co-operation.

In accordance with our routine motion, I'm informing the committee that all remote participants have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Colleagues, before we get started, there are a couple of housekeeping matters that we absolutely need to get cleared off today. I'm hoping we can do it expeditiously so we can get to the minister. It should be a straightforward administrative matter for study budgets.

The first budget is in the amount of $1,000 for the study we're doing today, supplementary estimates (A). That budget has been circulated. It is simply for a couple of headsets and the wonderful meal you have back there. We need to pay for that.

Is it the will of the committee to adopt the budget as presented?

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I see consensus. That is adopted.

The next is the proposed budget in the amount of $11,500 for the study on breast cancer screening guidelines. People have already appeared on this study, so there is urgency in this. We won't be able to pay them until this budget is approved, and that would be the right thing to do.

Is it the will of the committee to adopt the budget for breast cancer screening guidelines in the amount of $11,500, as presented?

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you. It's adopted.

Finally, we have the proposed budget in the amount of $38,000 for the study of the treatment and prevention of cancer. This one is looking forward to the fall.

Is it the will of the committee to adopt this budget as presented?

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

It's adopted.

Thank you so much, colleagues. That's going to make our lives much simpler.

We have bells. We require the unanimous consent of the committee to proceed through the bells.

Could I have the unanimous consent of the committee to proceed at least through the minister's opening statement, until, perhaps, 10 minutes before, so people can get over to the House if they wish? I see some thumbs up.

Do we have unanimous consent?

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, everyone.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on May 30, 2024, the committee is commencing its study on the subject matter of supplementary estimates (A) 2024-25.

I'd like to welcome our panel of witnesses.

We have the Honourable Mark Holland, Minister of Health.

From the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, we have Robert Ianiro, vice-president of policy and programs. From the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, we have Dr. Tammy Clifford, acting president. They are appearing by video conference.

In the room, accompanying the minister, we have Eric Costen, acting deputy minister. From the Public Health Agency of Canada, we have Heather Jeffrey, president.

Welcome, Minister Holland. Thank you for your patience while we worked through some of the administrative details, and for sitting through the votes.

You know the drill. You have the floor.

4:10 p.m.

Ajax Ontario

Liberal

Mark Holland LiberalMinister of Health

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It's a pleasure to be before this committee yet again, and in this instance to take questions relating to the supplementary estimates (A).

Maybe, if I could, Mr. Chairman, just before we begin, I'd like to give a bit of an update on where we are, as we're going through a very challenging time for the world, frankly, in dealing with health. We know that coming out of the pandemic, the health system was under enormous strain, with people burning out, long wait times and significant human resource challenges that were felt here and around the world.

Rising to meet those challenges is an exceptionally important priority for this government, working in collaboration with provinces and territories, and it was in your home province, Mr. Chairman, nearly a year ago, that we had the opportunity to meet with all health ministers in a spirit of co-operation and to lay out an agenda for how we might work together, in the aftermath of the pandemic, on the challenges facing our health system.

In the time that has followed, we have been able to see 26 agreements signed, with all provinces and all territories, dealing with health workforce issues, dealing with aging with dignity, dealing with mental health and many other aspects of our health system, and there has been continued progress on pharmacare and dental care. On dental care, I can say in this moment that in just the opening six weeks, we saw 200,000 seniors receive care across the country.

I'd be happy to go into greater detail, but we already have over 40% of providers participating. July 8 will be an important date, because that will be the point at which providers will be able to participate on a one-off basis. They will not be required to sign up in advance. We've also just seen the passage in the House of Commons—and I want to thank the health critics for the NDP, both current and past, Don Davies and Peter Julian, for working at cross-purposes and finding common ground on pharmacare. I've been having very productive conversations with all provinces and territories, and I'm very anxious to begin that work, to build upon their jurisdiction and to work with them collaboratively.

We must respect provincial and territorial jurisdictions. That's vital. For example, my discussions with Minister Dubé make it clear that we can improve the overall quality of the health care system by embracing a spirit of co‑operation on both sides.

Some really important things have to be done on things such as drugs for rare diseases. We're now able to move forward, and I hope that imminently we will be able to see progress on those.

You can see that there are dollars in the supplementary estimates for personal support workers. It's absolutely critical that we work collaboratively with provinces and territories to make sure those extraordinary individuals, who were so critical during the pandemic and who are critical today in our health system, are paid a fair wage and that we as the federal government do our part in that process.

As well, there's health data legislation. That data legislation will be coming before this committee. I look forward to the conversation that will happen on that. Having our systems interconnected and recognizing that data saves lives are absolutely critical things to taking blindfolds off our health care providers, making sure the data is used to its greatest effect to save lives and helping make our health system work efficiently. It's totally unacceptable that we still see fax machines and that physicians have to fill out forms four or five times. We have to get to the bottom of that.

I hope to see the same spirit I've seen with provincial and territorial colleagues, whereby we recognize that health is bigger than partisanship and that we have to find ways to talk about solutions, and I would invite members to share their ideas. We have a huge number of seniors, for example, who don't have dental care but who are going to get it.

For anyone who is against that, I would ask what they think the alternative is. If you're against somebody getting diabetes medication or contraceptives, what do you say to somebody who needs diabetes medication or needs contraceptives? What's your solution?

Similarly, with our health workforce issues, we've been able to make extraordinary progress, Mr. Chairman. Working collaboratively we have seen, for example, the service standard for foreign credential recognition in Charlottetown go from 90 days, or processes with the College of Physicians and Surgeons go from many, many, many months to being reduced and contracted to a matter of days.

I look forward to a solutions-based conversation where we can debate the very challenging global circumstance that we're in and how Canada can lead the way with a world-class health care system.

That concludes my opening remarks.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to take questions.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Minister.

We're going to begin rounds of questions with the Conservatives for six minutes.

We'll start with Dr. Ellis, please.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thanks for being here.

Perhaps you could tell us—we've tried this questioning before—how many Canadians don't have a family physician.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

Well, as I indicated before, it's difficult to get an exact number. It's between 12% and 14%, but again, it's difficult to know with precision.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Just the number perhaps, Minister? How many?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

As I've indicated before, it's impossible to give an exact number. I'd say in a ballpark range that it would be between 12% to 14%.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Are you telling Canadians out there that you, as the Minister of Health, really have no idea?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

What I'm saying is that the health data, which is collected by provinces and territories, is not as clear as it should be. What we get from provinces and territories leaves some ambiguity and, as a result, we are best left to speculate as to what that number would be and—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thanks very much, Minister.

So it's really six to seven million—

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

—the federal officials responsible...the 12% to 14%—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

—Canadians without access to primary care.

That's six to seven million.

How many doctors will Canada be short in 2028?

This is recent stuff. I don't know if you've read it, but these are important numbers. You could share that with Canadians.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

Yes, I would posit to you, you know, if you're going to advance deep cuts to the health system, then that number is going to grow exponentially. It's incredibly important not to allow cuts to occur to our health system. We've signed—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thanks, Minister.

I didn't say anything about cuts. I asked you for a number.

How many doctors will we be short in this country by 2028?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

I'm not going to engage in a hypothetical. I think that trying to guess what that number might be.... I imagine that you have some figures—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Once again, you have no clue. That's what you're telling Canadians.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

No.

I would say that I'm not here to play Jeopardy with you. If you have questions to which you have the answers—