Health Committee on June 17th, 2024

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

You really have no idea—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

No, because frankly it depends upon what happens in the next election.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

It's 44,000.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

No. That's a ridiculous number—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

What your government has done is increase taxes on health care: the capital gains changes. It comes into force next week.

How many more Canadians will be without a family doctor based on these changes?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Having a more fair and balanced tax system where doctors still have—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I didn't ask you about taxes. I asked you how many more....

Maybe you're having trouble hearing, but I can say it again for you. I'll say it slower: How many Canadians, because of your tax changes, will be without a physician?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I would say that the menace to our health system is the cuts that you would propose to it.

Is it not a more fair and equitable tax system that asks those who make the very most to pay a little bit more so that we can have a safe and secure health system?

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Just the number, Minister—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

If you want the opportunity—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

How many more Canadians will be without a physician because of your tax increases. How many?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I reject the premise of that question. I think that what is a menace to our health system is the cuts that you would impose to that system.

A doctor still has huge advantages under our tax system to be able to use—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

As we said, Minister, right now—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

—incorporation as a tax deferral vehicle—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

—six million Canadians don't have access to primary care. How many more, when you increase taxes, will not have access to a family physician?

These are not hard questions.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Well, they are, because they're not rooted in reality.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

They're difficult for you. I get it.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

You have some bizarre thing you're doing. I don't know what you're doing.

I'm trying to answer rooted in reality. The reality of our health workforce crisis is the investments that we're making both to accelerate foreign credentials and other forms of credentials—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Maybe, Minister, we'll try it a different way for you.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

—and to make sure, in the other instances—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Estimates would say—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Well, you're not interested in answers....

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Minister, I'll say it slower for you, because you're struggling. I get it. Estimates would say that the doctor shortage will be 44,000 by 2028—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I reject that. I think the work we're doing in —

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Excuse me, Minister. I'm not finished. Just listen. I know it's hard.

How much worse will the shortage get when the tax changes take effect? It's a simple question.