Health Committee on June 17th, 2024

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair. I'm having trouble hearing the interpretation. I don't think that the interpreter is speaking into the microphone. It's really difficult for me to hear what the minister is saying.

Sorry, Madam Minister. Please continue.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Is there an issue?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Is the issue resolved now, Mr. Thériault?

Okay. Go ahead.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

As I was saying, Mr. Chair, the diversion of all prescribed medications anywhere for use that is not their intended use is illegal.

We know, through the RCMP, that in the seizures it has conducted, there has been no increase—according to DAS, which is the main data source we use—of hydromorphone in diversion and seizure operations. That being said, it is certainly an issue of concern for me, and we have worked very diligently with the department to oversee what mitigation measures we can use when it comes to our safer supply programs.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Okay. You're talking about a mystery, from what I heard in the interpretation. You haven't clarified the situation yet or you can't say where the drugs came from. We know that some of these drugs come from a diversion of the safe supply.

Is that what you said, or did you say it wasn't certain?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Obviously, I can't speak to the specifics of an investigation that's being done by law enforcement. However, there is no mystery here. Diversion does take place. As a matter of fact, Fiona Wilson, when she was here, talked about the fact that diversion is a reality, which is why law enforcement has to play an important role in our full set of pillars of how we address the illegal toxic drug supply.

If the question is how much more, or if there is more—there have been allegations made by the Conservatives—we know from both the RCMP and DAS that there is no evidence of a systemic diversion of safer supply.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I agree. At the time, it wasn't clear whether a systemic diversion had occurred.

That said, I gather that there may be an investigation.

Do you know how this investigation is going? Without giving us any details, can you say whether progress has been made? At some point, will we see the matter resolved? This has been going on for a few months now. Is this an isolated issue? What information can you provide?

Enforcement of the law is a key pillar of the Canadian drugs and substances strategy. Hence my questions. We tend to forget that some witnesses told us that we wouldn't win the war on drugs, that we had never won this war and that neither prohibition nor coercion would help us win it.

At the same time, it's part of the national strategy and it rarely comes up in that context.

I have another question about enforcement of the law.

Have you set up any initiatives to regulate or limit the availability of precursors, which help fuel clandestine laboratories and manufacture the harmful and toxic drugs that kill people?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Through you, Mr. Chair, I would agree with the member. The concern of precursors is one that we are definitely occupied with. As a matter of fact, both last year and this year I signed off on new regulatory regimes on recent precursors we have seen coming into effect on the streets and through seizures.

To be frank, this is what we are most vigilant about in making sure that we highly regulate precursors. It is a complex—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Excuse me, Minister.

The bells are presently ringing. That is the end of Mr. Thériault's turn. The minister can finish her answer if we have unanimous consent to continue.

Is it the will of the committee to keep going for 20 minutes, at least, and then I'll check back in with you?

Are you able to do that, Madam Minister?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Of course.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay. If you can briefly complete your answer to Mr. Thériault, we'll then go to Mr. Johns. Thank you.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

To be succinct on this, what I will say is we are in a constant process of evaluating and highly regulating precursors when that is needed, and we know it is needed. However, I would also highlight that the complexity of regulating precursors is that they are found in other industrial products that we use every day, such as paints and other products.

We need to be vigilant, and we are being vigilant. We are also part of the international drug coalition on synthetic drugs, which addresses precursors, as well as the trilateral fentanyl group, to be on top of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Mr. Johns, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, in the past you've agreed that the toxic drug crisis is a health issue. Is that still the case?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Absolutely.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, you know that it's illegal for people to have personal use of illicit substances, or to even have illicit substances on them, in Canada everywhere east of the Rockies. You're aware that that's the case right now.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Yes, I'm aware.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

That being said, it's a criminal issue in this country, would you not agree?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I would say that, at this point in time, decriminalization is available in British Columbia only to refer people to health services.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay, so, you agree that it's a health issue. Your government, the Privy Council, went out and did polling to see whether the Canadian public supported decriminalization. The polling was mixed. If the polling was really high in support of decriminalization, would your government have gone ahead and moved decriminalization sweepingly across Canada?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

First of all, thank you for the question, and I want to thank you for your advocacy.

As I've said, both in this committee and in the House, as we move to address this health crisis, we also have to make sure we have all tools in place from both a public health and a public safety lens. This means that we have to ensure that full wraparound health services are in place as we move forward with other tools, such as decriminalization.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, I can't think of another health issue where the government is going out and doing polling, whether it be heart disease or liver disease, on what decisions they're going to make or how they're going to manoeuvre around health. Can you think of one?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

The Privy Council Office does polling on a myriad of issues.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Has the Privy Council Office done polling of the 42,000 families who lost loved ones on whether it should ramp up and scale up a safer supply of substances to replace the toxic drug supply?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I can't speak to whether such specific polling was done, but what I will say is that I meet with families across the country constantly, unlike the opposition, who refuse to meet with families, including Moms Stop the Harm.