Evidence of meeting #119 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Mr. Collins, I hear you on the point of order.
Mr. Genuis, I would ask that when a member is raising a point of order, you allow them to finish.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You show some respect for the rules. It's my time.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
I did stop the clock, Mr. Genuis, so that point of order has not caused you a loss of time.
There are three minutes and 10 seconds remaining.
I turn the floor back over to you, Mr. Genuis.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Chair.
If Liberal members aren't interested in drilling down to get to responses, that's on them, and that's evident from this disruption.
To the witness again, it's a very specific question. The specific question is this: Did you expect House of Commons IT to take that information and go and brief parliamentarians who were threatened?
11:45 a.m.
Chief, Communications Security Establishment
I'm going to pass on the information and ask if Rajiv would like to answer, given that, as I said, he was present at the time and would have a better understanding of what the expectation was.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Is that because you don't know? I'm happy to hear from him, but is that because you don't know the answer to the question?
11:45 a.m.
Chief, Communications Security Establishment
It's because I wasn't personally present. My expectation is that, yes, if I'm passing some information on to an institution or the House of Commons, they are acting on it, and that they're taking that information and passing it on—
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Do you understand that that's not the question? The question is not whether they were going to act on it. The question is whether they were going to pass that information along to parliamentarians. You can't even tell me if you expected them to pass the information along to parliamentarians. That's the question: Did you expect them to take that information and tell me and others about it?
11:45 a.m.
Chief, Communications Security Establishment
When we passed on the information, including the names, when we became aware of the names in June 2022, our expectation was that we gave them the information, as well as actions that could be taken to mitigate it, and they would act on it.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Again, you're not answering the question. The question is not whether you expect them to act on it. The question is if you expected them to brief parliamentarians. Did you expect them to brief parliamentarians, yes or no?
11:45 a.m.
Chief, Communications Security Establishment
If one of the actions was to brief parliamentarians, then the expectation is that, yes, they would have done that.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Was that one of the actions? Did you suggest to them that they brief parliamentarians? It's yes or no.
11:45 a.m.
Associate Head, Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, Communications Security Establishment
I was not present at the discussion. However, I have worked with HOC in the past. Expectations are based on—
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
It's not about what you did in the past. I'm just looking for a yes-or-no answer to a simple question, and I'm trying to get to it in five minutes. Just because of who you work for, you're not exempt from the requirements to answer questions at parliamentary committees.
This is the question: Did you expect, and did you communicate an expectation to House of Commons officials, that the information would be shared with parliamentarians—yes or no?
11:45 a.m.
Associate Head, Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, Communications Security Establishment
In working with the HOC, they have stressed from day one over the decade plus that we've worked with them, that the independence of the HOC is super important. They understand their clients.
11:45 a.m.
Associate Head, Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, Communications Security Establishment
We've worked with them many times. My understanding is that, having worked with them in the past on incidents and seeing what has happened, we have discussed this with them, and they have gone and done that job.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
11:45 a.m.
Associate Head, Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, Communications Security Establishment
Based on past evidence, my expectation was that we would have that same discussion, and that based on their understanding of thresholds.... I don't know the threshold for when the HOC's Sergeant-at-Arms will go and actually brief a person—
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Did you communicate an expectation or not?
11:45 a.m.
Associate Head, Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, Communications Security Establishment
We communicate the threat and the context, so understanding that this is the exact threat—
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
So you didn't communicate an expectation.
11:45 a.m.
Associate Head, Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, Communications Security Establishment
An expectation to go and brief.... We wouldn't tell them to go and brief, as in, “You have to go brief now.” We would tell them, “This is really important, and your members are at risk.” These are the types of things we would say. We don't say, “Go and brief.”
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Thank you very much, Mr. Genuis.
That's the end of the five minutes.
The floor will now go to Ms. Romanado for five minutes.
