Human Resources Committee on June 13th, 2024

[Marie-Josée Houle]

Absolutely. When we're talking about housing and supply and the economy, it's not just a simple question of supply and demand, because there is a supply that is finite, which is land. Land sometimes contributes, especially in a larger city, to the big cost factor involved in building new housing. The government is sitting on a wealth of land, and some of it can be developed for housing. It's not about selling it to the highest bidder and then government no longer having access to that resource in the future, but about land leases and exploring the role of land trusts, community land trusts and community actors for the community good to ensure this land has value in perpetuity and is not just sold off to speculation.

It's an amazing opportunity. I'm glad to see it being leveraged. I also hear that it's quite complicated but that it is happening, because to say that something's complicated and it's going to take time is not a reason to not do it. We need to do it.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I was about to ask you for your thoughts on the government deciding to emphasize leasing versus selling the land, but you've answered that.

I want to ask you also about co-op housing. Just a few days ago, you would have seen that the government made the single largest investment in the past 30 years to see more co-op homes built. What do you think of co-op housing in terms of, again, its contribution to this crisis?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

Co-op housing builds community as well as housing that is affordable not just with deep subsidies for people but for people who live there. It will realize a deeper affordability for those who don't receive subsidies as time goes on. There are reports from the Co-operative Housing Federation of Canada that prove this. Co-ops really are a great thing.

What co-ops need and what the entire non-market housing sector needs, as well as capital dollars to build and acquire more, is a change in legislation to be able to leverage their own assets in order to not be dependent on just government funds. They need support from government in order to bolster the capacity.

Right now, we're sitting on a few narratives that are very worrisome for me. First of all is that non-market housing especially, including co-ops, is only there or should be supported only because it houses people that the private market will not and cannot house. That's not true. As you know, non-market housing should be available to everyone, and it has its role in the overall market to compete with the private market. These are not ghettos and warehouses for poor people or people with deep needs. That's first of all.

Second of all is that only the private market has the capital and the capacity to build. The non-market housing sector used to have a ton of capacity in the same way that indigenous housing had a lot of capacity. That has dwindled because there has not been proper government investment in the sector and anyone who has talent has moved to work in the private market. We need to bring these people back, and we have a lot of examples—again, in Quebec—of organizations that are brilliant. They have the business acumen, and they are there to build community wealth.

We need to see that culture happening in all the provinces. Mr. Collins talked about Manitoba not having a lot of non-market housing. I know that Manitoba is struggling with their capacity.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you—

[Marie-Josée Houle]

You can dump all the capital there, but if no one can do it, that's where you need the support as well.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I know that you obviously have a passion for co-op housing in particular, and that shows, for very good reason. We have a colleague who talks a lot about housing, but when he talks about co-op housing, he talks about it as “Soviet-style” housing. What do you think of that message, of that kind of negativity, I mean?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

I think it's a real shame. I invite everyone to visit a housing co-op. They'll see something very different.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Finally, the government has proposed capital gains tax changes. The revenues gained from that will go to, among other things, helping on the housing side. What do you think of this particular measure?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

As I outlined, the human right to housing puts a responsibility on governments to use regulations and mechanisms to be able to realize the human right to housing for everyone in Canada without discrimination, and that includes creating market conditions to decrease speculation.

I sat with this committee last year on financialization and showed the harm of what financialization does. Financialization means that it's the large corporate investors, but as the large corporate investors set the rates for rentals, all the mom-and-pops follow suit, so it has a rippling effect on everyone who is renting, for example.

As government, you have the responsibility to put in regulations to shape the housing market so that it protects the human right to housing for everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Ms. Chabot, you have two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

Earlier I asked a question that was too long, but, with regard to homelessness, it's alarming to see that, even though investments have been made and more have been announced in the budget, we won't be able to resolve the situation if everyone fails to show some political will. This isn't just a money issue. We also have to solve the homelessness problem so we can offer people a roof over their heads, or at least better living conditions and services.

My question concerns non-market housing. In Quebec, we have an ecosystem in which that can be developed thanks to organizations like the housing bureaus. Since we seem to have a common goal of providing non-market housing, shouldn't we transfer funding as soon as possible to Quebec, for example, so it can take action and speed things up?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

Yes, absolutely. It's an urgent matter.

We're in the midst of a crisis. People are dying in encampments, and despite the speed at which the situation is deteriorating, speculation and financialization continue. As I said, we mustn't be content to invest in the real estate sector; we also need to support the non-market sector so it can develop and take advantage of opportunities that arise.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

With respect to co‑operating with the provinces, it's true that's one way the federal government could provide help. Regardless of the party in power, it stopped investing in housing long ago, and now it's decided to invest again, which is good. It's time to act.

However, could a summit on the housing crisis be a solution based on co‑operation and dialogue that would help ensure that everyone has the same objective? We've previously held a summit on car theft. That's hardly a joke. We should have the same objective on these issues, although I wouldn't want a summit to delay specific measures.

Could that kind of summit deliver the necessary shock to make us act?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

I'm not necessarily well placed to comment on that, but if there were a summit, the issues would have to be well framed because, as I said, the present system benefits a lot of people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Houle, I'm going to ask you to answer my question with a yes or a no, if that's possible.

Based on your observations, experience and analyses, are temporary immigrants responsible for the housing crisis?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

No.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much. Now that's settled, we can move on to serious matters.

You heard my Liberal Party colleague discuss co‑operatives. I share your love for co‑operatives. There are a few of them in Rosemont—La-Petite-Patrie, and they're really great. They offer a good living environment and a good model of democracy and citizen participation. However, they sometimes find it hard to do renovations and continue their activities. When unforeseen circumstances arise, they can't always afford the necessary work. It's as though they've fallen into neglect 20 or 30 years after they were established.

I've cited co‑operatives as an example, but what could the federal government do to guarantee that housing remains truly affordable?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

Generally speaking, programs are subject to conditions respecting co‑operatives' reserve funds. I believe the programs that the federal government created in the 1980s had fewer conditions. Now the new co‑operatives have to allocate a certain percentage of their budget to a reserve fund, which is used to solve property-related issues or for future repairs.

People who live in them definitely invest gradually over time in anticipation of significant renovations. The people who live there when the roof needs to be replaced or the elevator repaired or replaced aren't the only ones who invest.

Regulations have to be adapted and conditions established.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

According to the figures we have, which you probably have as well, we lose 10 or 11 housing units for every one that's built. That's like trying to climb out of a hole by digging deeper.

What should the federal government do to remedy the situation?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

First of all, it needs to invest in the sector and adopt regulations designed to check or limit speculation.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I see.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have 10 seconds left.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

All right, I'll stop there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

We're going to conclude with two and a half minutes with Mrs. Falk and two and a half minutes with Mr. Collins.

Mrs. Falk, you have the floor.