Human Resources Committee on Nov. 6th, 2023

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Perfect. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Collins, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Smith, we've heard that, with the change in the workforce, there is the whole issue related to training. As the organization seeks to implement AI in different parts of the organization, beyond some of those areas you've highlighted for the committee, can you advise what the municipality is doing in terms of training employees, either for job transformation or the whole issue related to job security?

We've witnessed many issues in the U.S. in terms of the United Auto Workers and employees striking to ensure that automation isn't replacing jobs in the workforce. All of us read with interest, at the heart of the Hollywood writers strike, how AI impacted job security there in language that was part of their collective agreements.

How is AI being communicated to the workforce? What kind of training do you have in place that might prepare employees whose jobs may be impacted by AI? Can you elaborate on those issues for us?

[Ryan Smith]

Thank you for the question.

As one of the fastest-growing municipalities in Canada right now, our experience may be a little bit different from that of others. In a lot of areas of our operations, we have employees running at 115% to 130% capacity. They're not at 80% capacity, where we're going to reduce them to 50% capacity. As we start to deploy AI in different business areas, we will watch this. Are there areas where we expect very transformational change? If so, we'll really need to do some business planning on how that change impacts the workforce.

We also don't want to go in and do that planning in areas that are changing just a little bit and that are taking employees back from 115% to 95%. That's where we want them, so that they have time in their day for innovation and we're not burning people out. Our biggest challenge is that we believe we're burning people out. We can't onboard fast enough the people with the right skill sets.

Our experience may be different from that of other municipalities, but to answer your question, in areas that would be impacted by greater levels of change, we will be implementing programs to either retrain or redeploy staff.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That would lead me to the question of job satisfaction. We did have a witness at our last meeting who talked about how, with some of the improvements in innovation that come with AI, it has led in some workplaces to increased job satisfaction. Are you seeing that with those who have been impacted in the areas where you've implemented AI? I think you alluded to that a couple of times in your answers.

Do you have anything with satisfaction surveys? I know it's early, because you've just implemented AI in some of the areas of the organization, but are there any early results in terms of employees providing feedback as it relates to job satisfaction?

[Ryan Smith]

Yes. I think the employees in some of the areas where we've deployed chatbots, whether it's at our airport or with our clerical staff who support our snow removals team, will report back and say that their jobs are much better now that they're not answering that same question over and over during overtime shifts and in snow events. They can really get to the residents who have problems that matter, and make sure that they're servicing those residents with the bulk of their time rather than those who have, again, the same question about when their street will be plowed. It's helping residents who have real issues, such as your plow plowed in my driveway and I can't get out and I have a work meeting, or someone could have mobility issues. How do we deal with that?

Again, it's kind of a uniquely Canadian example, but we believe the satisfaction of those staff, who can really make a difference in somebody's day, goes up.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

As a long-time councillor in the city of Hamilton, I'll be honest and say that I don't miss the plowed-in driveway calls here in Ottawa.

Can I ask about the whole issue related to transparency and privacy issues with the public? You touched on that earlier in response to another question from one of my colleagues. As it's used more in our daily lives, there's the whole issue of security in airports and facial recognition. We've seen some push-back from the public in terms of what they're willing to live with as it relates to being consumers and frequenting certain establishments in society, whether it be an airport or other areas. There's a line.

Can you advise us in terms of where that line is in your municipality? Do you have a corporate policy in place yet in terms of where AI might be used when you're dealing with constituents in the day-to-day tasks of responding? In some cases, it's just providing basic information. Do you have a policy municipally that seeks to address where AI might be used in the organization or areas where you may not want to use it because there may not be public acceptance or buy-in yet?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You can give a short answer, Mr. Smith, or maybe provide a written response to the committee. It's your choice.

[Ryan Smith]

I'll give a quick answer.

Yes, we have a digital strategy that guides the areas of our operations where we believe there's an opportunity for AI to make a difference in our citizens' lives. We haven't had much push-back yet, if any, in any of the areas where we've deployed AI tools. We believe nobody wants to wait in line at city hall or wait on hold for city hall.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Collins and Mr. Smith.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Durocher, you're the deputy commissioner of the Competition Promotion Branch and our committee is studying the repercussions of artificial intelligence for the labour force.

The use of AI has begun and I don't think it's about to stop. From the labour perspective, this presents many challenges in terms of ethics and surveillance, among others. The world will become increasingly virtual, which is where this notion of surveillance comes in.

On the subject of working conditions, we're hearing that the larger industries with 100 or more employees will be most impacted, not small business. It seems to me that regulation supporting these larger industries would be more useful than deregulation.

In your opinion, should these industries be more regulated in terms of the labour force?

[Anthony Durocher]

Thank you for your question.

Unfortunately, I don't have much insight into this question since we specialize mainly in the area of competition.

I do believe, however, that it's fairly obvious that, when we start using new AI technologies, this will in large part be due to the competition process. Indeed, there will be pressure on competitors to reduce costs or put more innovative products on the market.

From our perspective, the main thing is to ensure the market remains competitive. In terms of employees and competition, we need to avoid any and all schemes designed to limit their opportunities, for example.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

As we've seen in Quebec, sadly, some sectors like telecommunications and communications have been considerably weakened. We definitely need to change course, because jobs are being affected.

I understand you don't have expertise in employment and consequences on the labour force, but how can healthy competition contribute to developing these sectors instead of seeing them diminished or outright eliminated?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We need a short answer, Mr. Durocher.

[Anthony Durocher]

I would say that healthy competition is very important for the economy as a whole and that it plays a key role in boosting productivity, which was mentioned earlier.

About two weeks ago, the Competition Bureau released a report on the Canadian economy's competitive intensity. This report, which is the culmination of a 20‑year study, definitely shows that this intensity is on the decline, which isn't a good sign for the country's productivity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Ms. Zarrillo, you are next for two and a half minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've really enjoyed having the Competition Bureau here, and I hope we can have them come another time. We've been able to talk about telecoms, banks, grocery chains—lots of spaces where Canadians are suffering right now and need more competition. I think about the growing privatization of health care too. It really concerns me.

At this point, I'm going to take a minute on airlines, and I have a motion, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Zarrillo before you do that, if you introduce it now, it's non-debatable at this moment because it wasn't received in time. It would be debatable if you wanted to move it under committee business. It's your choice.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay, but are we going in camera for committee business?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Then I'll read it out now and then we can debate it another day.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

It's your time. Go ahead.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've sent it to the clerk. The motion is:

That, given multiple recent reports of persons with disabilities facing discrimination and unacceptable treatment while travelling with Air Canada, and that Air Canada admitted it violated Canadian disability regulations, that, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities invite Air Canada's CEO Michael Rousseau as soon as possible to committee for a minimum of one hour to explain these violations related to persons with disabilities and how they will rectify this situation; that a report of this meeting be prepared and presented to the House; and that, pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response to the report and explain how they will rectify this situation.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo.

It has been moved, but it's not debatable at this time. You still have roughly 45 seconds of your time.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

That's perfect.

I hope I can talk to you another time about the airlines, but right now I want to talk about something that I believe Madame Chabot brought up.

Right now, Microsoft already holds a lot of embedded knowledge and data. They already hold that, and there are many large players that already hold that embedded data. Also, I heard Mr. Smith from Kelowna say that, right now, all of the intelligence they're gathering from their staff in Kelowna is going to be free to everybody out there.

What I'm worried about is that Microsoft is also gathering that data from what's happening in Kelowna. Are they going to be sharing that data for free, or are they going to be using that data to create something similar to maybe what Kelowna's doing or go wider into the United States and across the world? How does the City of Kelowna, which owns that IP and IC, get compensation for that? I'm interested in what you think about that.