Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 14th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

You have two more minutes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

If the financial assistance were to suddenly dry up and friendship centres across Canada disappeared, what impact would that have?

[Peter Dinsdale]

Well, without being an alarmist, you would have young mothers who wouldn't get formula for their children, and they'd be living in poverty. You would have people who come to food banks not having access to that food. You'd have people in drug and alcohol counselling no longer having access to those counsellors. You would have community agencies shut down, places of celebration of cultural learning and achievement no longer existing in the community. You would not have a first point of contact and referral for aboriginal peoples coming from first nations into urban areas. You would not have access to those education and social initiatives that we provide in communities. Youth at risk would not have a gym to play in on Friday nights; so, without being alarmist, they would, in all likelihood, be out partying, breaking windows, and making babies.

The friendship centres play a pivotal role in the social harmony and access to social programs in communities. I think that would be the impact, in all honesty.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank Mr. Dinsdale for his appearance today.

I too have friendship centres in my riding--Hiiye'yu Lelum and Tillicum Haus--and both are very fine examples of organizations that do a great deal of good service to the community. They are involved in a wide range of programs and our community would be sorely disadvantaged if they were not in place. Although I can't directly correlate it, one of the friendship centres did temporarily lose some funding for some youth programs, and we saw youth vandalism go up in the community significantly. When that funding was reinstated the vandalism started to taper off again. So although no study was done, there seems to be a link.

I want to just briefly go back to the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples. It clearly talked about the need to pay attention to urban aboriginal peoples, and it talked about the fact that people wanted to be able to maintain their distinctive cultures and to exercise significant governance over their daily lives. In this overview that I've got, by Newhouse and Peters, there was a paper by Richards and Vining that talked about exploring the “correlates of Aboriginal student success off reserve”. They looked at recommending facilitating aboriginal participation in the school system through strategies such as the introduction of a distinct aboriginal school system, or the development of schools with special mandates to honour aboriginal tradition.

I wonder if you could comment on ways the friendship centre can contribute to helping aboriginal peoples maintain a distinctive culture and some of that cultural heritage that's so important.

[Peter Dinsdale]

It has a tremendous impact on education outcomes. My first job out of university was working in downtown Toronto in a place called Native Child and Family Services. The organization worked with street kids in that community, who were coming into our drop-in, to develop an alternative school in partnership with the Toronto District School Board. This school, as we envisioned, was modelled after the three alternative schools that were existing in friendship centres at that time. The one in Sudbury, which I did a placement at when I was doing my graduate work up there, really was about reintegrating aboriginal kids who had dropped out of school back into the public education school system. We did that through using their distance learning education programs.

What was important and why our kids succeeded was because we had a blanket of cultural services wrapped around those children to shield them from the issues they were facing at home or living on the street or living in shelters, so they could finish school and go on.

I say, half in jest, that it's hard to learn trigonometry when your home life is upside down, when your parents are drinking, when you have dysfunction in your community, when you're hungry, when you're looking for a place to live. We tried, as best as we could, through that service delivery centre, to remove all of those issues for that student while they were there in a safe place so they could learn. We took street kids who were living in shelters and had them going to the University of Toronto, a school my grades weren't good enough to get into--and good for them. These were smart kids who through their own life circumstances were unable to succeed, and when we removed some of those barriers and gave them an opportunity through culturally appropriate programs, given the same rigorous curriculum--let's not have aboriginal programs that are less stringent--they were able to succeed.

I would challenge not only the committee but also the government to have equally rigorous post-secondary challenges, but provide the services to remove the issues our people are facing in communities so they can be successful.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you for that answer.

I also want to just briefly touch on funding. My experience has been that a significant portion of the executive director's time is spent trying to drum up funding from somewhere. I would argue that we would be far better positioned by providing sufficient core funding to these organizations so that executive directors could focus on delivery of service rather than fundraising.

I wonder if you could comment on that.

[Peter Dinsdale]

Absolutely, and not only in terms of fundraising.... Look, we're paying our executive directors, if we did the full-time equivalent, $28,000 a year. If we were paying them like your program management within the public service department, your PM levels, the PM-07 making $90,000 a year, we would not only have higher qualified staff who are able to go out and get better programs, we'd have greater levels of accountability and we'd hire a much better worker.

In friendship centres, we hire executive directors when they're young, like me. We train them, and then the government scoops them up because they can get a pension, they can get a salary, they can have access to perks, they can have a career. We need to build that kind of infrastructure and economy in service delivery communities, not only in friendship centres, but also in those that provide services on behalf of the Government of Canada.

So it's a challenge, for sure, and the more money we pay is not only going to give them more time to focus on what they should be doing, but we're also going to hire qualified people who are better at doing it to leverage more partnerships and get more programs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Okay, thank you.

On the government side, Mr. Albrecht.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dinsdale, for being here today. I really enjoyed your presentation.

I just want to try to correct a misperception on the other side in relation to the tax credit for children--and I admire your wisdom in dodging the question. I would like to point out that the tax credit has nothing to do with individuals receiving the tax credit; it was for businesses. Another part of that was the whole idea of encouraging community groups to approach government with proposals to create child care spaces. It would seem to me that you would have an ideal situation where you as a community group could approach government to fill out an application--that's a second issue.

On page 14 of your presentation, you mention that only 16% of six-year-old aboriginal children living off reserve had attended pre-school programs, and the next bullet refers to only 42% had not attended pre-school. I'm just wondering if you could identify what components are at play here. Is it primarily an accessibility problem, or is it a cultural expectation in terms of aboriginal families preferring to care for their children within their homes, or is there a mix of those two issues at play?

[Peter Dinsdale]

Well, we know there's a definite access issue across the country. There are simply not enough aboriginal head start sites across the country to deal with the growing demands. Those that do have programs have them overrun with children. We've been certainly active in approaching government to expand those sites to much-needed areas across the country.

I apologize for misunderstanding the earlier question around the tax credit issue. We are actually, in all honesty, trying to get to Minister Finley, to talk about the process and to see where the opportunities might exist. I apologize for misunderstanding the question.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

That's fine; I don't think it was your issue.

A second question that I have relates to the very last sentence of your presentation. I think you said something about all-inclusive scholarships. I guess I would ask what obstacles there are to affording equal access to these scholarship funds for both on-reserve and off-reserve aboriginal people.

As a second part of that question, is there any way people can access scholarship or bursary funds for the alternative schools that are running? I imagine that an adult wanting to return to school might need some financial assistance. Are they available for that? What is the story on that issue?

[Peter Dinsdale]

The alternative schools where I was active most directly were in Ontario's jurisdiction, so they were able to if they met all the criteria. They were mostly on student welfare, quite honestly, while they were in our community agencies, accessing the program, so there were no scholarships per se for them to go back to school.

With respect to the inclusive nature, there's simply not enough money available for scholarships. I read with interest some of the minutes of proceedings of this committee when you had presentations and conversations on whether or not post-secondary education is discretionary funding. It seems the department believes it is. I'll tell you, I'm a status Indian from Curve Lake First Nation, and my first three years of university were not funded by my community. There are priority issues, there are access issues, and I think there are policy issues that need to be addressed. I took out loans just like everyone else, and I'm paying them back today. But in my three previous years and my graduate work, I was able to....

I don't think the issue is that my community doesn't want to support me; I think there are too many people ready to go. We have, what, 90% of kids--I should remember the number--not completing university right now? We want to pick that up. And if you want to pick that up immediately, give them money to go. We have kids on waiting lists who aren't able to go. We have kids who are ready, who have gone through the system, who have applied and been accepted, and who don't have the resources. They may or may not feel comfortable applying through the student loans process. I think there's still some angst in a lot of communities about accessing that kind of process. Once the band turns them down, they might not go back. So that's part of the inclusiveness, making sure there's access and funding available.

There's also another issue. If we're serious about aboriginal kids graduating from school, if we believe that's an issue--and it's not simply discretionary funding, but funding to the level needed--that's only status Indians. But you also have non-status aboriginal people in this country, you have Métis people in this country--although Métis bursaries, if Kelowna is endorsed, will exist--and you have Inuit kids across the country needing access.

So if we're serious, it's about not legal responsibility but responsibility as a society, making sure we have some kind of equity.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Is there an equity issue in terms of different groups accessing the resources? As well, is there an accountability issue in terms of how the funds are allocated and then disbursed within the band council?

[Peter Dinsdale]

I have not had issues with accountability with my first nation providing services for me. However, I think the issue is one of both access and equity--access across the country and equity as to your legal status. If Bill C-31 defines me as an Indian, I have access; if the government decides I'm not an Indian, I don't have access.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. Blaney, you have two minutes.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Two minutes? Okay. I'm going to go with my short question, then.

We have two visions for education. Through friendship centres, you help Aboriginals enter our school systems. Some groups seem to feel that it's better to have parallel structures. What is your take on this?

You somewhat answered my question earlier when you said that off reserve Aboriginals should have access to school curriculums and scholarships. Could you elaborate on your vision for the medium turn with regard to students living off reserve?

[Peter Dinsdale]

If I were the minister of aboriginal education, I would do both. I would make sure we had appropriate feeder systems in the post-secondary programs where kids and communities could prepare themselves and be qualified for school. That would be number one, to deal with this growing issue in communities. Two, I would ensure equitable access once they're prepared.

So yes, part of it is the backlog of first nations students who are ready, but the second issue is the other aboriginal people--maybe the majority of aboriginal people--who simply don't have access to those programs at all.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Madam Neville, please.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for being here today.

Before I ask my question, I just want to clarify one thing we're muddled on, and that's tax credits. My understanding is that tax credits are applicable not to not-for-profit organizations but really to profit organizations. But you will have your meeting with the minister and determine it accordingly.

I would like to ask a number of questions. You raised some important issues related to urban education, and I want to follow up on post-secondary education. I'll ask the two questions, and then if we have time we'll come back.

What is your understanding of the implication of not proceeding with Kelowna in terms of access, or lack of access, for aboriginal students--Métis, first nations, treaty, non-treaty--to post-secondary education?

My second question relates to the K-to-12 system. You sound familiar with the Children of the Earth and Niji Mahkwa schools in Winnipeg. I know those schools well, and I know what Winnipeg has spent on those schools--on curriculum development, on teacher training, and on many other aspects of the educational program there. Most of that funding has come from the taxpayers of the city of Winnipeg.

Do you believe there is a role for the federal government as it relates to aboriginal education in the urban setting, in terms of curriculum development, teacher training, or whatever? And if so, how would you see that?

[Peter Dinsdale]

With respect to Kelowna, obviously we were dissatisfied with the process in terms of how we would impact education; we had some thoughts on how maybe we should approach it. I should probably leave this for the groups who were intimate in the development of it to talk about the impacts of it not getting funded. That said, we support Kelowna and the commitments. We believe the commitments to Métis bursaries and education processes can only help the issue. You can only help by having first nations school boards, raising standards to provincial standards, and having bursaries. It's only going to help my brothers and sisters, aunties and uncles, cousins and other relations living in those communities. I want them to succeed, and they need those things. We need to do so much more in the urban areas, and that's what we were saying as part of our dialogue.

With respect to the question of funding responsibilities, we thought the whole round table process in Kelowna was really a missed opportunity to lay some of those issues on the table. That was the first meeting of first ministers on aboriginal issues--not a constitutional meeting--since the sixties, when it was resolved that we were going to start dealing with health issues off reserve. It would have been a great opportunity to talk about the same issues.

I don't know what the legal constitutional responsibilities are in terms of the division of powers and those kinds of notions, but an incredible moral responsibility weighs on the government to do something.

I'm skirting the question, because I don't pretend to be a constitutional scholar, but I can tell you that people in communities need the services. While we continue to squabble, there will be some great programs in Winnipeg, and some in Toronto and elsewhere, but the issue won't be dealt with strategically across the country for another decade.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Okay.

Can you comment on the aboriginal head start program, and on what you know to be the difference for children? In Manitoba, which I know well, the programs are limited, particularly in the urban setting. It appears to me there needs to be better coordination between the aboriginal head start program and the public school system. There's often a duplication.

Do you know what impact the aboriginal head start program has had? Are you aware of studies whereby children have attended or have not attended, and longitudinal studies on the outcomes in terms of their learning and other life skills?

[Peter Dinsdale]

I certainly can't quote any longitudinal studies that have measured the impact of those students who've attended versus those who haven't. We're attempting to do some research with school boards to look at urban churn--that is, kids living in poverty, leaving one house because dad didn't get the job, going to live with uncle, changing schools, and not having school records follow because the family has already moved again. We're attempting to look at the impacts of those kids dropping out.

A lot of jurisdictions don't target aboriginal people in the school system, so it's hard for us to track that progress unless we had tracked the client early on. We're hoping that some of your western ridings and some of the western cities will have that kind of...because some are starting to collect those statistics.

I could look to see what my policy analyst has with respect to some of your specific questions, and I'd be happy to share those and follow up with you, but I don't have anything with me today.

I can tell you, though, we know it has an impact. Just looking at the kids who are going through, we can see that they're stronger. They seem better prepared to deal with the racism issues they feel in the public school system. And those issues still exist, although we haven't talked about those impacts yet.

So the kids certainly have more successful outcomes, but I can see if we have any specific studies that we can point you to.