Evidence of meeting #30 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was issues.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB
What impact did that money have on the current negotiations? What effect did all those negotiations have? Was there something meaningful that came out of it, or are you finding there was nothing that came from that?
9:55 a.m.
Chief Negotiator, Hul'qumi'um Treaty Group
At our table--and I can only speak from my own experience at our negotiating table--we've made progress on many issues. The treaty is hundreds of pages long, and there are many clauses that you have to work your way through. We've made progress on a lot of the issues. We've reached consensus, and we have language that we have developed.
It's really in the core group of issues that we're finding we don't think there's much room there to negotiate at this point--at least that's what we're hearing. Most of the tables are now getting up to that point on those issues. They're saying they're not finding that they're going to be able to make any progress on those.
For $1 billion, what do we have? I guess we now know that we have a difference of opinion on some key issues. That's where we've gotten. Maybe it's a beginning to at least knowing where we stand.
Now, how are we going to try to break through that? I think that's the next question.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB
Thank you, and again, thank you, Mr. Morales, for coming today.
Let me just follow through on a couple of questions on the whole issue of fee simple. What impact do you think that will have on reserve lands? Could you just take us out a couple of years should that come in?
If we have time, my other question is whether you could elaborate a bit on the joint policy table and what impact you think that will have.
9:55 a.m.
Chief Negotiator, Hul'qumi'um Treaty Group
Thank you.
I had a former member of the legislative assembly in British Columbia talk to me about fee simple. His question was why isn't it good enough? It's good enough for other Canadians; why isn't it good enough for aboriginal people? That's a good question.
What we have to look at right now as first nations people is that our title—and the courts have confirmed this—isn't derived from the Crown. Our title pre-exists the Crown; it was there before. Our ownership of the land existed. Now what we're being asked to do is to say, okay, you can take our aboriginal title and we will agree in this treaty to convert it to a form of ownership that derives its authority from the Crown, and thereby fundamentally shift our connection to the land. Again, when we talk about this little quote that I put in the paper here about genocide, that's part of it. It's to ask us to fundamentally change who we are, what we are.
So is fee simple good enough? Well, I suppose it would be in practical, pragmatic terms; you could say, yes, we can sell it, we can lease it, we can do whatever we want with it, and it's better than the Indian Act, because under the Indian Act, we don't own it. But it still isn't based on recognition of us as a distinct people.
So is there space for us to find a way to deal with this? I think that's the question we're asking.
What will be the impact of the joint table? It will give us an opportunity to have this dialogue, the kind of dialogue we're having here, and perhaps try to find some solutions and at least understand each other. Why is it that government says this is the only way we can negotiate? The other question is, why are first nations not satisfied with this approach? Somehow we have to be able to engage on this at a level where decisions are being made; otherwise we'll just continue to get frustrated at the table, because we're being told, no, this is not possible. When I come to the table and say, we want our aboriginal title recognized under section 35 of the Constitution, we're told, no, that's not possible. Why not?
Thank you.
10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
I'm really finding this very interesting. The problem is that we've run out of time. Maybe the committee can look at this in the next session or possibly look at this again.
I really want to thank you, Mr. Morales, for your information and insights. As I said before, it's good to see some of the treaties coming to a head. There are so many, and I calculated that it will take least 150 years before they're all done, at the rate we're going—and that's not good enough. I think both sides agree on that.
Hopefully we can resolve this and move forward for certainty.
10 a.m.
Chief Negotiator, Hul'qumi'um Treaty Group
Mr. Chairman, if I could just make one small comment on your remarks made from the chair, I agree with your observation in terms of fairness to all Canadians. When we look at what we have given up as first nations, I think that needs to be factored into that equation of fairness. I don't come here with a victim mentality; I think I come here trying to raise the awareness of what we've seen happen, and continue to happen. I've been giving this little speech on the debate that happened in Spain about whether Indians are human. Maybe that's still the debate. Do we have a human right to own property? Do we have a human right to self-determination? We need to get past these kinds of issues and actually begin to get into problem solving.
So thank you very much.
10:05 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
Committee, we'll start the second portion of our meeting. We'll be looking at the circumstances faced by the Pikangikum First Nation.
As witnesses this morning, we have, from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Christine Cram, associate assistant deputy minister; Robert Howsam, former regional director general, Ontario region; and Deborah Richardson, acting regional director general, Ontario region.
I was not here to hear all of Mr. Valley's report to the committee. We have subsequently received a letter from the chief of the Pikangikum community, Chief Charlie Pascal. The chair has some concerns because there are comments in the letter relating to some of the discussions that happened here in camera. I just want to advise committee members that when we're in camera, it means that everything stays in this room until it's released. Because I was not here, I don't feel comfortable asking the committee if they want to release the in camera information from the last meeting and make it public, the recordings of the conversations. So I'm going to leave that alone, but it is a concern raised by this letter. So I'll leave that with you.
Thank you very much, to the witnesses, for coming.
Do each of you want ten minutes to discuss some of what's happened, or how would you like to proceed?
December 7th, 2006 / 10:05 a.m.
Christine Cram Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-Economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
First, I'd like to thank you very much for inviting us. It's a big honour for us to be here.
What we'd like to do is have Bob Howsam speak for about five minutes, and then we will be open for questions, if that's okay.
10:05 a.m.
Conservative
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
I had understood this was going to be an in camera meeting, so we could have a full, frank, and open discussion. I'm really disappointed to hear there was a leak from the last in camera meeting of this committee; it's a fundamental breach of trust. I think we need to re-commit, when we have an in camera meeting, to ensure it stays within this room; otherwise it's a fundamental breach of trust.
My understanding was that this meeting would be in camera.
10:05 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
Okay.
What is the pleasure of the committee? Do you want to have this meeting in camera?
Mr. Lemay.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
No.
Mr. Chairman, I think that we will be dealing with real topics today and therefore I do not see why we would do this in camera.
I was provided with a copy of the letter in English, which I was able to read, and I was very surprised to learn that there had been leaks with respect to issues debated here in camera.
From now on, Mr. Chairman, I do not think we should be working in camera. We agreed on meeting with the department officials and, if possible, I think we should also meet with officials from the Pikangikum First Nation.
I do not think it would be appropriate to do this in camera because Canadian citizens have a right to know what is happening.
Whenever we talk about in camera hearings, with the exception of discussions related to lay-offs or a related topic, there is always a smell of sulfur—I wonder how that will be translated—and it's never a nice smell. Therefore, I think it is important that this discussion be opened to everyone and I believe the department officials expected this morning's hearing to be public.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
Is that the pleasure of the committee? Everybody is fine with that?
10:10 a.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
10:10 a.m.
Robert Howsam Former Regional Director General, Ontario Region, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. We're certainly pleased to be here today to provide some information and answer any questions you may have.
I'll try to give you my presentation in five minutes, although everything about the Pikangikum First Nation is complex, so if I go on too long, feel free to stop me and we'll get right into the questions.
Pikangikum is a very proud, large, and traditional first nation in the northwestern part of Ontario. Even in the northern Ontario context of first nations, the Pikangikum is all those things. It's isolated and serviced only by air, winter road, and barge. It's a large community in the northern Ontario context, with a population of over 2,000, and rapidly growing, with 75 to 100 births per year. It's probably one of the most traditional communities—if not the most traditional community—in Ontario, strongly influenced by elders and various family units. It's very proud. Pikangikum has a long, proud history of thriving and survival.
From our perspective and from the conversations we've had with them, they face a number of challenges: certainly geography, remoteness, the growth in population, a high incidence of youth suicide, and social problems. They also have some opportunities, and I'm going to try to cover some of the potential economic development opportunities.
The community is about 90 kilometres north of Red Lake, Ontario. As I said, there's no year-round road access. There's scheduled air service and there are winter roads, but there are issues with the winter roads as the climate changes. Their winter road season gets shorter and shorter. At least that's our experience over the last couple of years.
In the mid-1990s, a number of initiatives were undertaken to try to address the challenges. We did some work around the capital planning for a new school, and we started work on trying to connect the community to Ontario's power grid.
There was a break in relationships between the community and the department over issues of financial management and third-party management and the community's reaction to that. In fact, there's still some ongoing litigation related to that period of time. In March of 2004, I travelled to the community with the grand chief and a number of others, in essence to try to re-establish the relationship between the department and the community to assist the community to work through its challenges.
Another challenge the community faces is that they elect their leadership, their bands, through something called band custom. As a result, and as a result of the way the community works, there have been six chiefs over a five-year timeframe. So there have been some changes in leadership that have caused some challenges, in terms of trying to deal with the issues of infrastructure and social challenges, etc.
From the point of view of Indian Affairs, Ontario Region, the challenges are all interrelated, in particular those of infrastructure. Water, sewer, schools, and housing are all linked to each other, but more importantly they're linked to the issue of electrification. On top of that, obviously there are social issues that the community has to deal with.
In terms of the existing infrastructure, there is a water treatment plant run by a level 3 operator. The level of the operator is determined by the complexity of the plant. There are four levels in Ontario's water jurisdiction, so that plant requires a level 3 operator since it's a level 3 plant. The plant is extremely well run and produces potable water. In fact, the operators take great pride in the plant's operation.
The issue in Pikangikum is not the water treatment plant, but the distribution system, which is largely not there. The vast majority of the homes are not hooked up to the water treatment plant, and people get their water from what's called a water point at the plant.
Because of the growing population, which I talked about, the school is under heavy pressure. It's an old building that clearly needs to be replaced.
To try to alleviate some of the overcrowding issues, we put portables in. The portables had to be replaced. We've replaced them with what's called a temporary five-pack classroom. Currently, fifty of the secondary students are receiving their education outside of the community, at Ignace, Ontario, through an arrangement with the Nishnawbe Education Council.
In terms of housing, as with other first nations communities, Pikangikum is experiencing overcrowding in the houses. The figures we have in our profile show that there are about five people per home, but there are issues around the quality of the homes, the size of the homes, and with the population growth there are clear challenges there.
As I said, electrification is one of the big challenges within Pikangikum, in terms of addressing the infrastructure issues. I don't want to get into too much detail. In Ontario there are 26 off-grid communities that get their power through diesel generation, which brings with it, obviously, a whole range of environmental and cost issues.
Pikangikum is one of the 26 communities that operate on diesel in Ontario and it's one of 12 that are not covered by Ontario Hydro's rural rate subsidy program. The rural rate subsidy program seeks to get power rates close to what people pay in the rest of the province. Pikangikum is one of 12 communities not covered by that.
The other reality is, the diesel generation system is currently at capacity and that impacts on a number of issues. I'll try to get into that, once again not in too much detail.
As we talk about serving the community, another issue is burial sites. The community practice is to bury their loved ones near their home, which is their traditional practice. Obviously, there's nothing wrong with that, but it does present challenges when you're trying to service the community, etc.
I've touched on social issues. The term, unfortunately, is successful suicides. There have been 38 successful suicides in the last 10 years, which is obviously an appalling number and indicative of the social challenges.
We've worked with the community. As I said, I was there in March 2004, and I continue to work with them and look forward to working with them. We have sat down with previous leadership, and the priorities we have worked on are around safe, clean water and waste water activities. Clearly, a new school is a priority for the community...additional housing, because of the growth. Dealing with the electrical issue is certainly a huge priority.
The approach we've taken with the community recently is we met with them twice in November, either with the leadership itself or with the Independent First Nations Alliance, which is the tribal council that represents them.
Deborah will be travelling to the community next week. We believe we have an opportunity to meet with them.
We've established a working team not only with ourselves, the first nation, and the tribal council, but also with Health Canada, and we're prepared to bring in other people to make that working team approach work. We're also prepared to pay for an independent facilitator whom the first nations will be comfortable with, and we think we've identified an individual who can do that.
There are a number of things we're trying to do in the interim to deal with the challenges that are there. There are water points throughout the region, which make up, in essence, a distribution system to a number of places where people can go from their homes to pick up clean water. There are a number of those. They are inoperable due to vandalism or due to neglect, and we're providing the first nation with $900,000 to fix those.
We're at the stage of the capital planning study, in terms of the school. We're working with them on that. The school is on our capital plan, etc.
We've provided the first nation, to date, with $7.5 million since 2000 around the connection to the grid, which we see as the ultimate solution to the electrification problem and therefore the ability to address all of the other infrastructure issues. There will be additional costs required around that grid connection.
I want to touch briefly on economic development. There's something called the Whitefeather Forest initiative. I don't know how much you know about Ontario forestry issues, but there is an area called “the undertaking”, and the area above that is largely not developed. The Whitefeather Forest is an opportunity for the first nation to develop a sustainable forestry industry. There's a potential of over 300 jobs in this activity. We've been supportive of the first nation around that, and hopefully it will enable them to have positive discussions with the Province of Ontario around that activity.
In terms of the social challenges, Health Canada, from the federal government's point of view, has the lead on the issues around assisting the community to deal with issues such as youth suicide, and so on. We work with Health Canada and the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, and now Treaty 3 is also brought into it as well, with an intergovernmental task force on youth suicide. We've provided funding for projects to try to assist both the community and Nishnawbe Aski, which is the treaty organization, to try to lessen the terrible burden of suicide that they have.
Where we are currently is that we have worked out, in conjunction with the Independent First Nations Alliance, the tribal council, with representatives of the community, although not yet the current chief and council, and as I said, we have Health Canada involved, and so on, and the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, to try to come up with an integrated plan to address the longer-term needs and to try to address the priorities that we think we've agreed to around clean, safe water; school; housing; and electrification. This plan addresses both short-term activities, the kind of thing I talked about around additional water points, and longer-term activities and coming up with a concrete plan around that.
So we're working very diligently at that. As I said, we've had discussions around process and content, and the first nation has moved forward. One of the former chiefs, Mr. Dean Owen, we understand, is going to be the first nation's representative on this working group that will hopefully provide us with some kind of continuity.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
10:20 a.m.
Former Regional Director General, Ontario Region, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Sure. I'm on my last page.
The next steps are to get buy-in from the first nation around this action plan, make sure the first nation is involved through all steps of the process, and then seek a way of consultation, because the leadership of the Pikangikum and the members of the Pikangikum have to be the experts and the leaders in this process.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
Thank you.
Committee, I'm going to restrict you to five minutes for questioning, to give everybody a better chance to ask a question.
I'll start with the Liberals. Mr. Valley, please.