Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 7th, 2006

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you for coming.

First of all, very quickly, I want to thank the committee for interrupting their other work to make sure they had time to listen to this today. I also encourage them to deal with the chief's issue next Tuesday. This is a big step forward for me, working in the riding, and a big step forward for the community to have that opportunity. I understand you're very busy, but I thank you for considering it.

Mr. Howsam, you and I worked together while the Liberals were in government. I'm going to say a lot of things and there are some things I want to ask you directly.

But first of all, you mentioned the working team and identified an individual. Later on, you mentioned an individual I worked with, Dean Owen. That's what I want. I want somebody who has the support of the chief and the elders in the community and who can continue the project if we do go into another transition period with the administration. I think this has to be key, and it will be my first topic of discussion when I get up there with the elders.

Is this two different positions you're talking about?

[Robert Howsam]

No. It's in essence one position, one person from the first nation who can be the continuity and the contact point as we move through both the short-term and long-term issues we're trying to solve.

The independent facilitator is maybe what you're referencing, and that is a separate process. If that's needed, we're certainly prepared to support the cost attached to it.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

My information on the water plant is exactly the same as you have. I'm going to ask you a very direct question.

What we see in the report—and I'm not sure if it has been circulated to the committee—is that they're using portable water storage units now that are absolutely atrocious. Can you give them direct help when the ice roads come in?

These are the 1,000-litre tanks. These things are not fit to be drinking water out of, and this is where the people are storing their water. So my immediate concern is, can you address that during this next little while?

[Robert Howsam]

The short answer to your question is yes, we can. The longer answer involves concurrence from the community on an approach. We were prepared to sit down with the community and work out a broader truck-haul basis, both for water delivery and storage, and then sewage removal. The community was concerned that somehow this may slow down longer-term hookups, etc. We've provided assurance to the community in writing that this is not the case. And certainly whatever solution we come up with in the interim is going to have to meet both community and Health Canada concerns around how the water is stored, etc.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

How big a player is Health Canada in all this? In my opinion, they should be a bigger player, considering some of the issues identified in the Northwestern Health Unit survey that has sparked this latest controversy, that Health Canada is in step with INAC.

[Robert Howsam]

Obviously, they'll have to speak for themselves. From my point of view, yes, they are. Their primary role is around testing and providing technical advice to chiefs and councils and technical units. But the fact they're participating on this task force as a full member bodes very well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

Mr. Russell.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you very much.

I'm glad you're here.

It almost seems like a backward process. You're appearing before us because of a request from the minister that the community wasn't aware of until a few days ago. I have concerns with that. We seem to be going into a study without making a decision to go into a study on Pikangikum.

I don't want to make any assumptions, but outside an inventory of what's going in, and the complexities on how they're integrated, this is a more delicate question. This is around relationships, because I understand there's some relationship-building or elements to this when you talk about having a joint group, one from the community and one from INAC, a facilitator involved, these types of things. That gets to the heart of relationships, how you're going to work with each other. The concern I had about the minister's letter is that, coming this way and us saying we want to go without an invitation from the chief, which we now may have--

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I want to correct you, Mr. Russell. The fact is it was presented to this committee, and we all agreed and had a consensus that we were not going to entertain going unless we were invited by the chief and council.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I'm talking about....

Mr. Chair, can I finish my question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Yes, you can.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

The letter came from the minister; the community wasn't notified. We then started to entertain that particular request. I don't want to get too much into that, but the relationship issue is very important here, it seems to me, if we're going to go and be a positive influence.

I want you to comment on that. How important is this to getting some real change and real action on what needs to happen to the community and the people there?

[Robert Howsam]

Your relationship is crucially important to working successfully among communities and Indian Affairs and government in general, frankly. As regional director general, I have--or had, up until last Friday--a very large budget, a significant number of staff, both technical and others, who can do things and deliver things around water treatment plants, roads, sewers, and those kinds of issues. The bulk of the senior leadership of this organization, particularly in the regions, is around relationships and around developing trust and understanding with first nations. For people who have dealt with first nations, there are huge and legitimate challenges that first nations have around trust because of the length and the history of the relationship between governments and aboriginal people in Canada.

So the short answer to your question is that relationships are crucial.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

Mr. Lemay or Mr. Lévesque.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have one question and my colleague Yvon may have one as well. I think my question is a very important one. Did the minister write his letter asking us to intervene and go into the community on the department's request?

[Christine Cram]

Do you want to know whether or not the department asked the minister to write the letter? Is that your question?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Yes.

[Christine Cram]

No, not at all. That was the minister's decision.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Then, what this means is that neither the officials, nor the people working the field, nor the deputy ministers were aware of the fact that the minister was writing us to ask that we intervene in this file?

[Christine Cram]

You mean were they aware before he sent the letter?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Yes.

[Christine Cram]

It is true that the day before, the department was aware that the minister was considering this, but it was a political decision. We are the bureaucrats, and taking the initiative of asking the committee to do something is a political decision.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Then I have a comment on that that I'll make at the end, but for now, I have one question. In that case, how would it be perceived for the committee to go there? You're there on a daily basis. The situation that Mr. Howsam, for whom I have a great deal of respect, has just described, is one that I have seen in three or four of my aboriginal communities. These are not easy situations. Therefore my question is the following: How would a visit there be perceived?

Second, can we go there? What do you expect from this committee, given the minister's request? The minister is asking us to do something that you were not aware of and only learned of the day before. If I were a civil servant working in your department I would have had a fit. In any case, someone, somewhere would have known about it. What does the minister think he's doing? He doesn't consult his own people and send us a letter. How will our committee be perceived if we go there?

[Christine Cram]

I do not have an answer. Making a request to a committee is a political decision. I can say that the minister has a great deal of respect for this committee, for the work it has done and for the experience of the committee members. I'm assuming that the minister thought that, given how complex the situation is—as Mr. Howsam explained— the committee could help him find solutions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

If you read the letter, I think you'll see the tone of the letter is that the minister is looking for some counsel from this committee. To me, that was quite encouraging, that he would have confidence that we would be able to do that for him. I think that was the intent.

But the committee felt.... First of all, they're not directed by the minister; they're at the pleasure of the House. I think they needed to know, really, what they could do, because they didn't want to give any expectations. They wanted to make sure it wasn't perceived to be a political move. It's something we already did have genuine concern about, and we wanted to see if we could possibly assist in any way and make some recommendations to the minister.

Leaving that, I'm going to turn it over to Madam Crowder.