Evidence of meeting #58 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Yvonne Boyer  Legal Advisor, Native Women's Association of Canada
Mary Eberts  Legal Advisor, Native Women's Association of Canada
Phil Fontaine  National Chief, Assembly of First Nations
Richard Jock  Chief Executive Officer, Assembly of First Nations
Candice Metallic  Legal Counsel, Assembly of First Nations

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I would like to convene the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development of Tuesday, June 12, 2007.

Committee members, you have the orders of the day before you. We're continuing our study on Bill C-44, An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act. We'll have two sets of witnesses today. The first witnesses are from the Native Women's Association of Canada. With us today we have Mary Eberts, legal adviser, and Yvonne Boyer, legal adviser. After, we will be entertaining the Assembly of First Nations, the national chief, Phil Fontaine.

I apologize to the witnesses that we were interrupted by votes. I would ask the committee if they would like to extend the meeting past the one o'clock time set, if we can.

11:50 a.m.

An hon. member

I'm sorry, I have a meeting at one.

11:50 a.m.

Another hon. member

So do I.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Well, we only need three people to continue. I think I'd like to do that. I know the Native Women's Association of Canada was interrupted last time, and we'd like to give ample time for them to speak. Maybe we can go until 12:30.

Mr. Lemay.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Here is my suggestion, Mr. Chair.

I am going to let my colleagues take their seats. I will wait until the interpretation begins, because that is certainly very important.

Mr. Chair, we have just received a message informing us that the National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations, Mr. Phil Fontaine, will not be with us today. We have only just been informed of this. He will be replaced by his executive director.

I do not know what our schedule looks like but I know that we are sitting on Thursday, unless my government colleagues tell us differently. We could perhaps hear from the native women today and take all the time that we need until 1 p.m. We could welcome National Chief Phil Fontaine on Thursday in the first hour of the meeting. That would probably take care of everyone.

I agree with you, Mr. Chair. I respect the native women too much not to grant them the time that they deserve. We could continue with them until 12:30 p.m. or 12:45 p.m. and the National Chief could join us on Thursday. That is my recommendation.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

What's the pleasure of the committee?

Mr. Bruinooge.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB

I'm maintaining a position held in a previous meeting. I expressed at that time that our party's position was that the witnesses who had been called previously have already made submissions to this bill. As such we would like to proceed with the clause-by-clause. So our position hasn't changed.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Madam Neville.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

I think it's important that we hear from the Assembly of First Nations. I'm prepared, if there's a willingness of the committee, to stay today. If not, I think we have to do it on Thursday, but I think it's imperative that we hear from the Assembly of First Nations.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Monsieur Lemay.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Because of the respect that I have—and it is an enormous respect—for the Assembly of First Nations and its National Chief, I have to say that he is the one I would like to hear from. Today we learned that it is the executive director who will appearing. I would like to hear from the National Chief himself.

This bill is so important that I want him to appear before us. Perhaps he is available. I see that his executive director has just arrived, perhaps he would be able to tell us if the National Chief would be available on Thursday. We have just been told—I have just found out—that Mr. Fontaine will not be with us today. I think that it is important that he be here and that we hear from him.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Mr. Bruinooge.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB

Mr. Chair, aside from Mr. Lemay's source of information, I'm not sure if we've received any official pronouncement from the national chief.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

He is there. We can check. The Clark can check in two minutes. We could begin hearing from the witnesses.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB

Okay.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

The clerk has not been advised that National Chief Phil Fontaine will not be here as of the convening of this meeting.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB

Should he arrive later in this hour, I'm sure we could make arrangements to extend the meeting.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I have asked the clerk to check with representatives from the AFN, and National Chief Phil Fontaine will not be here. There are representatives here, so the committee can ask questions of them. We can deal with it at this meeting. Unless I hear otherwise, that's what the chair will do.

We will continue with the witnesses we have from the Native Women's Association of Canada until about 12:45. Then we will hear from the AFN representatives who are here now. Unless I hear any motion otherwise, that's the course of the agenda for this meeting.

I'll ask the witnesses to please make your presentation. You have up to 10 minutes, and then we'll ask questions. Thank you for your patience.

11:55 a.m.

Yvonne Boyer Legal Advisor, Native Women's Association of Canada

Thank you very much for the time considerations.

My name is Yvonne Boyer. I am one of the legal advisers to the Native Women's Association of Canada. My colleague, Mary Eberts, is with me. I will be making the opening statement, and together we can answer questions following my presentation.

President Jacobs and Ellen Gabriel were before you not that long ago and gave you a fairly detailed outline of where the Native Women's Association stands on these issues. Just to recap, I have eight points that I would like to clarify that came out of their presentations. I'll start with those, and then we would like to comment on the position of Indian and Northern Affairs and also the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

First of all, in relation to the repeal of section 67, we want to state that there is full agreement that this is long overdue. But there must be meaningful consultation as a strong first step in an evolving and collaborative process.

Capacity-building and education are necessary, and these are key factors in communities when they're implementing their own mechanisms of protecting human rights. What we're looking at as a timeframe is a minimum of 36 months from the repeal of section 67 to the coming into effect. This is to provide adequate consultation and to put into place capacity-building and education.

There has to be a balance between collective rights and individual human rights, without jeopardizing either set. A core of this issue is to address conflict through various forms of indigenous legal traditions that allow the communities to decide how best to address the conflicts themselves.

An interpretive mechanism is also very important to guide the application of Bill C-44. The process for deciding what would be included in the interpretive provisions would be addressed during the 36-month period before the act came into force.

In relation to INAC's position on some of the key areas, the Native Women's Association disagrees with INAC's stance that there already has been consultation because of various initiatives in the past to repeal section 67 and respectfully disagrees with the statement that there have been significant consultations in the past 30 years.

Further, the position that INAC has taken that there has been no direction from the Supreme Court of Canada regarding a duty to consult before passing legislation is directly contrary to the recent ministerial representative's report on matrimony and real property and the legal opinions she garnered—

Do you want me to slow down? I'm getting excited.

In relation to her ministerial representative's report on the duty to consult, Wendy Grant-John garnered legal opinions on this important issue. In fact, the result of these legal opinions was that she strongly stated that Canada needs to develop a policy on consultation and hasn't done so.

In their presentation, INAC minimized the potential impact on first nations of repeal of section 67, while also admitting they had done no real analysis of that impact.

In sharp contrast with its present position, the government expressed a number of concerns to the La Forest commission. This is recorded by the commission in its year 2000 report, and it's on page 129. These included: that the lifting of section 67 might lead to retaliation against claimants and extra costs to aboriginal governments called to defend their actions; that a period of transition would allow aboriginal governments to review their practices; that new litigation against the department might have an adverse effect on resources available for aboriginal programs; and that aboriginal people, especially women, will need to be educated about asserting their rights. Those statements that were made by INAC are in direct contradiction to their present position.

The Native Women's Association has made a well thought out proposal dealing with all of these issues, including consultation, capacity-building, education, and the bridging of indigenous legal traditions as a foundation and implementation of human rights after the repeal of section 67. To date, the government has not responded to the Native Women's Association's proposal.

NWAC's opinions on submissions made by the Canadian Human Rights Commission are as follows.

The Canadian Human Rights Commission has recommended that the minimum of 18 months before the act applies to first nations should be extended to a significantly longer period. NWAC agrees with this position but prefers a minimum of at least 36 months.

The Canadian Human Rights Commission would like to see an interpretive clause, as recommended by the La Forest review in 2000. NWAC agrees that an interpretive clause is necessary.

On June 7, 2007, the Canadian Human Rights Commission suggested wording for this clause. NWAC, however, disagrees with that approach and believes the final wording should be settled during the consultation phase that NWAC has called for.

The Canadian Human Rights Commission points out that to date no new resources have been allocated to support the commission's initiatives to engage with first nations stakeholders or to plan implementation. NWAC considers the need to provide resources for capacity-building and consultation is very urgent and must be attended to promptly.

Thank you.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you very much.

Do you have a further presentation, Madam Eberts?

Okay, we'll move on to questions.

Madam Neville, please.

Noon

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you.

Thank you for coming back. We very much appreciate your taking the time to respond. It is important that we hear from you.

You referenced the Canadian Human Rights Commission and their interpretive clause. In fact, what they are recommending is an interpretive principle. Have you looked at the wording of what they are recommending, and what are your thoughts on it as it stands?

Noon

Mary Eberts Legal Advisor, Native Women's Association of Canada

We have looked at the wording as proposed by Ms. Lynch when she came on June 7. We have a few comments, but our basic position is that the language of the interpretive clause is something that is most appropriately developed in consultation with aboriginal peoples who will be subject to the act.

That being said, let me point out that the proposal for an interpretive clause relates to just the complaints that would be brought against first nations. It's not unlikely that the need for that interpretive clause could also arise in complaints that are brought against the Government of Canada. One of the things that might usefully be considered is whether the interpretive clause should apply across the board or only in complaints brought against first nations.

The other thing we want to point out about the interpretive clause is a somewhat deeper principle, that it is always suggested the rights of individuals are in conflict with the rights of communities. When President Jacobs came to this committee the first time around, for the main presentation of the Native Women's Association, she said, no, that is not the case because individuals are individuals in nations.

So it's necessary to reconcile the two groups of interest. NWAC believes very strongly that one way of doing that is to go back to indigenous legal traditions. One of the things we notice about the interpretive clause proposed by the commission this go-round, and also that was proposed by Judge La Forest in 2000, is that there is no mention of using indigenous legal traditions to resolve some of these issues.

I also want to mention that in section 2 of the Canadian Human Rights Act, the purpose of the act is set out as being to extend the laws of Canada to give effect to the principle that all individuals should have an opportunity equal with other individuals. Then it continues: “consistent with their duties and obligations as members of society”.

We already have some recognition, even in the main Canadian Human Rights Act, that individuals exist within the context of society. It's really important that we bring that recognition home to aboriginal peoples by building in more references and more resort to indigenous traditions.

We've had no opportunity for the last 30 years to have indigenous principles brought to bear on Canadian human rights law because indigenous peoples have been shut out of the Canadian human rights mechanism. There is a lot of wisdom in those traditions and in the dispute resolution mechanisms that needs to be brought to bear on these issues. Our big disappointment with the language that has been proposed so far is that it does not recognize the indigenous legal traditions.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you.

12:05 p.m.

Legal Advisor, Native Women's Association of Canada

Yvonne Boyer

I would like to note that John Borrows has published a very wonderful body of works through the Law Commission of Canada that is posted on the website in relation to indigenous legal traditions that would be very helpful.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Following that, we've heard the minister say many times that he wants to give first nations, particularly women, the rights and privileges of non-first nations or non-aboriginal women. I'm listening to you, and when you speak about the legal traditions and the collective, are you seeing this legislation in that context of providing women with the rights that non-aboriginal Canadians have?