Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 27th, 2009

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Okay.

[Paul Thompson]

I'll just briefly add that in our training investments we're not only trying to align with private sector demand, we're trying to align with basic infrastructure investments too, so that the infrastructure spending that Mr. Forbes was explaining, we think, has considerable skills dimensions around it. So we're trying to align the training investments to meet those.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Local people for local projects, because in the north we can't always do that, given their skill.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Rickford and Mr. Thompson.

We will now start the second round with Mr. Russell, who has five minutes.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning to each of our witnesses.

Being from Labrador, I certainly share the understanding of my colleague that we don't always fit into the definition of northern, at least in terms of this particular strategy, but I think that some of the things we'll talk about affecting the territories in this particular study will have some impact upon my riding or other northern regions, or the provincial north, as we shall say.

I want to touch base on a couple of points raised.

Mr. Thompson, in your presentation you talk about AHRDS. Of course it's been around for quite some time. You note that it is probably one of the more substantial programs in terms of the amount of money that is invested in aboriginal labour force development—13 agreements, $25 million. You say you're transitioning or building on this great success of AHRDS. Can you tell us what the nature of the aboriginal skills and employment training strategy is in this new strategy? There have been some concerns raised about delivery, whether you'll be going to call for proposals to deliver the program. I don't see how that would necessarily jive with the fact that you can say on one hand that it's been tremendously successful and then on the other hand say that it may go to a different type of delivery mechanism, in terms of requests for proposals.

[Paul Thompson]

A number of new directions will be the focal point for the new strategy. One relates to two of the themes I was just speaking about, the importance of partnership approaches and demand-driven training investments. There are a lot of innovative approaches across the country under the AHRDS. We want to make that approach a little more systematic in the new round, in the successor programs, so we'll be looking for strategies that link the local labour market conditions and demonstrate the kinds of partnerships that are essential to meeting the kinds of outcomes the program is intended to meet.

The other big area of focus for the new strategy will be around accountability and demonstrating the results of the investment. Here again, there are those service delivery organizations that have done an exemplary job; others are more challenged for a variety of reasons. We'd like to be able to work very actively with the service providers to improve the service delivery and ensure that results are measured very carefully and made available transparently so there are clear indications of the effectiveness of the investment.

Those are the three broad themes we are pursuing: the new strategy partnerships, demand-driven programs, and improved accountability.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Then there is no sense that you'll call for proposals for service delivery.

[Paul Thompson]

The way the service delivery is going to be implemented is that there is a requirement for business plans. We're not having a competitive request for proposals, but we expect an organization that wants to continue to deliver services in a given geographic catchment area will submit a business plan. We may see some reconfigurations of service delivery if two service delivery organizations want to group together to achieve economy of scale, but the critical factor is that there is a business plan that demonstrates those three themes I was speaking to: the partnerships, the demand-driven programming, and the accountability.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Very quickly. Mr. Forbes, you say the TFF is probably one of the most important mechanisms from a territorial perspective and it is supposed to make sure we provide a range of public programs and services to territories that are comparable to those offered by provincial governments at comparable levels of taxation. Is it working? How would we know?

[Chris Forbes]

In some sense, what we're giving is a block transfer to the territories based on our measure of need, which is a measure of expenditure need less our estimate of what revenues they could raise, similar to the revenue-raising measure we use under equalization. It then is up to the territorial governments to spend that as they see appropriate, targeting the priorities of their residents.

Are they able to provide comparable services? Certainly in some areas they can. Do they in all areas? I couldn't answer that question, but they do have those funds available to make choices as to education, health care, etc., and how much they want to put into various areas.

I would point out that it is a significant amount of money for each territory.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Mr. Russell and Mr. Forbes. It goes very quickly.

Let's go to Mr. Duncan for five minutes. Then if other members wish to get on the list, please so indicate.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you, and good morning.

I'd like to talk about some specifics.

Mr. Thompson, you talked about the ASETS programs at Baker Lake and Mary River. I understand Baker Lake is a going concern, with about 600 employees, and they'd like to ramp up to about 1,000. They are going to be producing their first product in January. It's a big gold mine. It's 100% Canadian owned. It's a real showpiece for Canadian ingenuity and talent, and I don't know the number for the Inuit content in the workforce. I have heard it is anything from 25% to 40%. Mary River is another operation that is a little longer term, I understand, but all the permitting is in place at this point. The real issue is getting enough people to do everything that is required.

Can you explain in practical terms how ASETS operates in that environment, how it's delivered? That would be fascinating.

[Paul Thompson]

I'd be happy to, because it's a fairly innovative approach to program delivery that is proving itself to be quite effective. At its foundation, as I was noting, is the whole concept of partnership. This isn't one player taking ownership of the issue. It's all the players coming together and actually forming a new incorporated entity with a board of directors that would include representatives from the employer, from the local community, from training providers, from territorial governments, and from funding partners.

Through that partnership, there's a very detailed proposal and plan put together with a number of targets. There would be a target for the number of individuals to be trained, and then there would be targets for the number of permanent jobs that will come out of this training. It is all with a view to maximizing participation of aboriginal people in these employment opportunities. We are in the 25% to 40% range in the Baker Lake project that you were mentioning. It's those kinds of results that we're really striving to see.

These programs are long-term investments too. The ASEP programs generally last four years, and there's a planning period. There are actually the intensive training investments, which are done in collaboration with the existing service providers too, so the AHRDS agreement holders, which have the ongoing agreements to deliver training. They are key partners in this too, because they can do intake as well as the local colleges and training institutions. There's quite a broad-based partnership to identify the clients, train them, and place them in sustainable jobs.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

How many people would be in that program at any one time at an operation like Baker Lake?

[Paul Thompson]

I don't have the Baker Lake numbers right in front of me, but I can speak to some of the other projects. For example, we have a very large project with the Yukon Mine Training Association. There are training opportunities for 500 aboriginal people in that program, targeting close to 300 long-term jobs. That's throughout Yukon and stretches into northern British Columbia as well. We have another very large one in mining in the Northwest Territories with the diamond mining companies, with over 570 people receiving training for, again, close to 300 sustainable jobs. Those are fairly large numbers in terms of both individuals trained and the sustainable jobs coming from that initiative.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Is that my time already?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

It truly is. It goes rather quickly.

Thank you, Mr. Duncan.

Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

To follow up on what Mr. Duncan was saying, I encourage the committee to go to Baker Lake. I had asked before if we could go, but we cannot, given how far it is. Still, it would be very useful for the committee to visit.

I am a bit concerned because I have always subscribed to the notion that we should adapt programs to the regions and not the other way around. So my question is simple. How will you go about adapting programs to regions in such a vast area? I am thinking about HRSDC, in particular. I would think it would be very difficult.

I am well acquainted with the leaders of Agnico-Eagle who are working on the Baker Lake project, because it is also in my riding, even though a large part is located in my colleague Yvon's riding. All of the resources in the north are being exploited or have the potential to be, but, as aboriginal communities have said, the programs are not being adapted to them. The programs are being thrust upon them from above. Are they wrong in their perception, or are we able to adapt the programs to the regions, taking into account regional characteristics and distances?

Lastly, I have a question for both of you, or even all four of you. What is the biggest barrier to northern economic development, whether in the Yukon, Nunavut, Nunavik or the Northwest Territories?

[Paul Thompson]

That is a very complex question.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'll make it simpler. What is the biggest barrier for you?

[Paul Thompson]

The social and economic challenges are intertwined. It is very hard to identify them one by one. It is important to work with partners and adopt a consistent approach and, I hope, as with the kind of program I have just described, a partnership-based approach. Programs can be adapted at the local level. I hope that the strategy that will replace the AHRDS will give us enough flexibility. The only things we need are a knowledge of local conditions and a strategy to form partnerships. Investment decisions are not made at the national level. Decisions and priorities really unfold on the ground.

I am talking about aboriginal programs, but we also have territorial transfer programs, because the territories are in a better position to set their own priorities.

So not much in the way of investment is decided....

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I understand what you are saying, but I want to delve a bit further.

Let's assume that the budget is $1 billion. We know how to undertake education for first nations in the south. They need schools and so forth. But do we know what to do in the north? I am talking about education, but it also applies to social services. In your case, it is mostly training.

When goose-hunting season starts, they all go hunting. So don't assume that school can start at 9 a.m. That is not their experience, going to school at 9 a.m. Do your programs allow for that kind of flexibility?

[Paul Thompson]

Yes, there is flexibility, as well as measures to fully understand the needs of residents and employers, and to try to find solutions that are acceptable to both parties. I mentioned our sector council on aboriginal labour. It works very closely with large companies to understand the traditional aspects of life in the north and to adapt to that kind of situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay and Mr. Thompson.

Mr. Dreeshen.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you very much. I think what I'll do is just expand on what Mr. Lemay was speaking of.

There was discussion earlier with respect to the role of aboriginal skills and employment partnership programs. I'm wondering if you could speak to the opportunities for private industry to partner with government in order to deliver training programs.

First, though, perhaps you could comment on the literacy concerns there are in trying to get to that stage, so that they are able to better utilize the types of training programs that might be presented.