Evidence of meeting #48 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was privacy.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you so much.
We're going now to Mr. Bevington for the last questions.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
I'll share my time with Madam Hughes.
Right now there's a situation—and you have demonstrated it with the complaints you've received—where band members who vote for the people who run their bands have the opportunity to gain the information. It may not be perfect, but it's there.
Now we're going to have a situation under this act where virtually the whole country, people who don't vote for band councillors, who don't vote for band chiefs, will have all that information at their fingertips.
Do you see that that situation improves the privacy of the individuals when the information is not with the validators, is not with the people who are voting, not with the members of the band, but with the entire public of Canada? Do you see that that could be construed as an invasion of the privacy of the individuals in question?
4:40 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Certainly to any of us in the situation of having a lot of our personal dealings being publicized because of the jobs we—
4:40 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I can understand that. We have a situation in which a series of band individuals then have their earnings and/or total remuneration being looked at by all Canadians.
I think this comes back to the first question I suggested to you: is this justifiable in a reasonable and democratic society? And is this going to be effective in the goal that seems to be making band councils more transparent in their administration of money?
I went on to talk about whether it is proportional or basically overkill. Could you accomplish the same thing by making the information available to the department and to the band members only through—I think somebody mentioned—a coded access to the band website? I think those are questions you have to look at.
Is there also an alternative way of doing it? I mentioned some of the techniques. In some provinces, people with over a certain amount have their expenses or their remuneration disclosed. Could you do salary bands?
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
It sounds as though you're leaning in the direction I'm talking about, that people who are validators of those particular elected officials are the ones who should have the information, instead of necessarily every Tom, Dick, and Harry across the country.
4:40 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I'm not leaning in any direction except that of privacy, and I don't have all the facts; you have all the facts. You're listening to all the witnesses. Some of you have intimate and personal knowledge of what's happening in aboriginal governance.
I'm just suggesting to you that you have to look at this question. This is a very relevant question: does all of Canada need to know how much band council chiefs and members need, or do their own band councils and possibly Indian Affairs?
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
I really appreciate your input on this, and obviously it's very limited, because as you've indicated, you are not privy to a lot of the goings on in the first nations.
When we look at the Auditor General's report from December 2006, it basically said the unnecessary reporting burden placed on first nations communities needed to be reduced, and it noted that AANDC alone obtains more than 60,000 reports a year from over 600 first nations.
I know you can't comment on that—or maybe you can, I have no idea—with respect to whether or not this reporting habit that has been foisted upon the first nations is more than what is actually being requested from other levels of government, first of all.
Second, as my colleague was indicating, first nations have their own government. The federal government doesn't tell the provincial government how to disclose its information. In your view—and I don't know if it's within your purview—are first nations able to decide for themselves how to decipher that information and how to get it out there?
Also, when it comes time to providing that information to the first nations members themselves, as opposed to having it on a website, is that contrary to being able to get that information out to the members?
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
I will just say our time is up, but if the commissioner wishes to comment in response, she may do so.
4:45 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I'll try to respond to those two questions.
Yes, I read about the reporting burdens described by, I think, the previous Auditor General. If it's any consolation, the burden on small entities to report to the federal government is already huge. Non-aboriginal small organizations frequently cry that they have been burdened with 160 reports per office and so on. That being said, honourable member, in preparing for this, I believe I read there was an announcement recently that it had been streamlined by the department.
Secondly, on the issue of whether aboriginal bands are a distinct level of government and what that means, perhaps I can refer to our general counsel.
4:45 p.m.
General Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I understand the importance of the question. I don't think either the commissioner or I, certainly not today, are able or are well versed enough in the kinds of constitutional issues that this may raise.
To the extent that we may, we can help you work through the privacy implications, using the framework that we put forward and inviting you to use it and adapt it to address some of the distinctions and the subtleties that you need to in order to, in your view, meet the ultimate objectives without unduly invading privacy. But I'm afraid on that question in particular, in terms of the federal government's role with respect to the governance of first nations, that's beyond my area of expertise, to be safe.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you very much.
We want to thank you both for coming today, Ms. Stoddart and Ms. Kosseim. We appreciate your time and your expertise, which you've shared with our committee. We know we pressed you for information that's beyond your mandate, but we thank you for being gracious in responding to our questions and responsive to our inquiries.
Thank you so much. I'm sure we'll see you again.
Colleagues, we'll suspend now for a few minutes and then move back in camera for committee business.
[Proceedings continue in camera]