Evidence of meeting #76 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was regulations.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you.
Not seeing any additional speakers to amendment NDP-3....
Mr. Genest-Jourdain.
9:05 a.m.
NDP
Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The proposed amendment to clause 4(3)(b.2) requires the establishment of regulations for an audit of drinking water safety plans by third parties. Based on my interpretation of the French text, the concept of third parties opens the door to the audit of plans put forward by private entities. At the very least, that would make it possible to take a look at plans presented by entities other than First Nations entities and, inevitably, by private entities that may put forward certain plans governing water safety.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you.
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
As a result, I should note that amendment NDP-13 fails as well.
We'll move on to amendment NDP-4.
Ms. Crowder.
9:05 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In this one, we're looking at adding “as well as emergency response protocols” after “First Nation lands”.
I think that just makes sense in terms of making sure we're not only talking about the provisions for drinking water and disposal of waste water but also talking about the emergency response protocols. We've seen cases in which, first of all, there were no protocols in place, and second, communities have not been notified in a timely way that there were problems with the water system, so it's just a clarification measure.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you.
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
We're on to NDP-5.
Ms. Crowder.
9:05 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
With regard to this one, we're making a recommendation that the Minister of Health and the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs must take into account the capacity of each first nation to comply with the prescribed standards to install their drinking water systems and waste water systems, and to train the operators of these systems. As I said before, we've heard time and time again about the issues of resources and capacity to manage the systems. Without those resources, we are referring back to the expert panel on safe drinking water. They indicated that putting in regulations without an adequate resource plan will simply force first nation communities into using their resources in compliance with the regulations and not in terms of developing capacity in their organization to actually deliver safe drinking water.
The issue of liability has come up time and time again as well. With the government attempting to absolve itself of all responsibility and with inadequate resources in communities to meet the regulations, there is grave concern that first nations are going to end up assuming a liability that they simply are not equipped to assume, because they don't have the resources or the capacity. That's the reason for the introduction of this amendment.
9:10 a.m.
NDP
Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC
In this proposed amendment, we need to comment on the notion of capacity.
The capacity of a First Nation can be altered by obligations that are linked to the First Nations Land Management Act, among other things, depending on when a band agreed to these commitments. It all adds up. Therefore, this notion of capacity is measured based on the expertise available and the responsibility of a First Nation.
Therefore, I think it is essential to come back to this notion of capacity and, basically, to the factors that may add up and alter this capacity expressed by a given band.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you.
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clause 4 agreed to)
(On clause 5—Included powers)
On clause 5, we are considering amendment NDP-6.
Go ahead, Ms. Crowder.
9:10 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In this one we're asking that clause 5 be amended by adding, “establish a system of capital infrastructure lifecycle planning so that future capital needs are known and expected and can be appropriately budgeted for at the local, regional and national level”.
Again, this relates to my comments about resources. We have also seen, with regard to the engineering assessments that have taken place at communities, the severe state of many communities in terms of both high and medium risk to their systems.
This isn't an attack on this current government. This is a long-standing issue, over decades. We haven't done the long-term planning. We haven't done the long-term budget allocation. We haven't done the assessment of the life cycle on the resources. It's a serious problem. We now have such an infrastructure crisis within first nation communities that it's difficult to see, without the political will and the long-term commitment, that first nations are going to be able to meet the obligations reflected in this bill.
We heard, as well, from Metro Vancouver, and they were reflecting other communities in terms of their own issues around infrastructure and their capacity to provide drinking water systems and waste water systems.
Part of what has happened in this bill is that although the focus was largely on drinking water, the issue around waste water management is equally problematic. We need that long-term planning. It would be a responsible thing for government, both now and into the future, to understand its obligations with regard to infrastructure planning and development. Without this life-cycle planning, that's not going to happen.
9:10 a.m.
NDP
Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC
Along those same lines, I would appreciate it if we could refer to the notion of budgets to better understand the proposed amendment or addition, since capacity, as I mentioned, is associated with the envelope. Ultimately, the envelope will determine a band's capacity to retain expertise and provide on-site training. It is therefore essential that this notion of budget comes back to the surface or, at the very least, is paramount in the proposed measures.
May 30th, 2013 / 9:10 a.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
If the desire of the government is to make this legislation effective, then the government needs to enter into agreements and work on these regulations with first nation communities across the country. In order to do that, there has to be some assurance to first nation communities that there's going to be a system in place that will allow them to match up to these regulations. That's clearly not the case now.
This type of amendment would at least give some sense of assurance to the first nation communities, which has been largely absent over decades in their struggle to develop sustainable and healthy communities. It just hasn't been there. We know from the national engineering report that this government is not in line to provide the capital funding that is essential to do the work that has to be done on the reserves—work that is a federal responsibility. The money is not there.
This bill is really a sham without this type of clause added to it. It's more about window dressing for this government. I know the government is going to vote this down, as they have voted down everything else that first nations have brought to these tables on the bills and laws we've worked on here. Their sense of superiority in this regard is truly, I would say, repugnant in some ways.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Mr. Bevington certainly has indicated some of the stuff that I was going to mention with respect to the challenges here. If the amendments are not going forward, if this government believes that municipalities will actually come forward now and want to provide assistance or access to their system, I think they will think twice. I think it will be much more difficult now for those relationships and those abilities to come together to provide safe drinking water to first nations. The responsibilities without these amendments are going to be huge. As you well know, after Walkerton, we already have smaller communities that are in proximity of first nations, which have systems that won't be able to handle this. Some of them actually have systems that still find themselves on well water even with the new ones.
We heard just this week from one of the first nations that talked about the fact that the government invested so much money from Saskatchewan into a system that still isn't working properly. They're still on a boil water advisory.
On that note I would respectfully request that the government side seriously consider the amendments and ensure that any piece of legislation that is going to be put forward is going to have the means and the gist of what the government is really trying to put forward.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Ms. Hughes.
Mr. Bevington, I appreciate your comments. I'm hoping that we can keep to the content of the amendments. When you seek to speak to amendments, please keep to the amendment before us.
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
We're on amendment NDP-7.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
With regard to this one, we're calling for an amendment that establishes a participant funding program that facilitates participation of the public and the implementation of the drinking and waste water system. I've already referenced the concern raised with resources. The points I raised in other amendments stand.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
It won't come as a surprise, but I do have a ruling with regard to this amendment.
As folks know, the House of Commons Procedure and Practice, second edition, states, on page 767 and page 768:
Since an amendment may not infringe upon the financial initiative of the Crown, it is inadmissible if it imposes a charge on the public treasury, or if it extends the objects or purposes or relaxes the conditions and qualifications specified in the royal recommendation.
In the opinion of the chair, this amendment does infringe upon the financial initiative of the crown. It requires a royal recommendation. Therefore, I rule that this amendment is inadmissible.
We'll move to amendment NDP-8.
9:20 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
This amendment would fall in line with requiring a drinking water safety plan. That's what this speaks to.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
9:20 a.m.
NDP
Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC
The proposed addition has to do with public communication in terms of the governance and self-determination of First Nations.
We know that public involvement is essential to the implementation of measures like the ones being planned. Therefore, public involvement is a central element. Public communication is a bastion of this support. If we really want this to be successful, we need to ensure that the public as a whole reclaims these measures, which requires constant contact and communication.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you very much.
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
We're on amendment NDP-9.
9:20 a.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
This amendment says, “under the regulations, clearly establish the roles and responsibilities of each person and body”. Again, this relates back to both the Canadian Environmental Law Association's testimony and Dr. Hrudey's comments with regard to a drinking water safety plan.
As well, we noticed that in a number of these clauses there isn't the specification around who that would be. First nations did raise some concerns that in some cases it refers to first nations and in some cases it refers to a person in the legislation. That lack of clarity does lead to some concern about where the liability rests, who's going to be assigned the penalty, and it goes on.
It also relates to paragraph 5(1)(h), where it talks about the power to seize and detain.
Again, the lack of clarity on role and responsibility is troubling throughout this legislation.