Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 25th, 2011

[Sophie Pierre]

Two or three years into this process, the first economic impact analysis was done, and since then we've been updating it. We had PricewaterhouseCoopers do an update in 2009. At that point, the annual benefit was around $10 billion if we were to have a number of treaties settled. I don't know if any of my colleagues know what the other numbers were, but that number sticks in my mind—$10 billion.

The point, though, is that we have the economic benefits analysis. It has been done by a third party, PricewaterhouseCoopers, and they show, without doubt, the economic impact to be positive for British Columbians and for Canada if we can get these treaties settled.

I mentioned in my report the B.C. mining association. While they didn't give us any numbers, we know that's a major industry that needs certainty on the land. Part of the provincial agenda is to increase mining activity. So those numbers, I think, are going to blow our own PricewaterhouseCoopers study right out of the water, because there's tremendous benefit.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I wonder if there's a chance that we might be able to see the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, if it's public.

[Sophie Pierre]

Absolutely. We'd love to share it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

We'd love to see it.

Thank you for that.

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Included in that report, I guess, would be the intangibles to the communities. The leadership has been tied up in these seemingly unending negotiations. It sometimes ties up the best people in your community, doing this work. Perhaps you could describe how that affects communities.

[Sophie Pierre]

Yes, certainly, it has a big impact, but it kind of relates back to the question our MP, David, raised with me earlier. What we have done at our own table is take advantage of that. That scenario has not been repeated at very many tables.

The majority of the work, the majority of the emphasis, has been on the negotiations. In fact, the majority of the financial resources have gone right out of the communities, because they've been paid to lawyers and consultants to do these negotiations and the communities have seen very little benefit. It's something we certainly don't encourage. In fact, we have been in a situation where we have suggested to a first nation that maybe they don't want to take on any more debt, because we don't see that the benefit is going directly to the first nation. In fact, it is going right out the door. So yes, there's been a lot of emphasis placed on negotiation, and it's time that we spend more time learning how to be effective managers of our communities.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Now, I want to ask you a question about one a little closer to the Northwest Territories, and that's the Acho Dene Koe First Nation, the ADK. It entered into this process in 2000. Is there an end in sight for their desire to enter into treaty negotiations? Are they going to be accepted? What's the status there? How can that move forward?

[Sophie Pierre]

I'll have my colleague, Commissioner Haggard, who sits at that table, respond to that.

[Dave Haggard]

We have a problem with British Columbia. Canada has been negotiating with the Acho Dene Koe. The last time I talked to anyone up there they were getting close to an agreement, actually, in the Northwest Territories. They had agreed at the time that they would wait until they were finished in that area before they started talking to British Columbia. There have been many discussions. The Treaty Commission has accepted their statement of intent. British Columbia is still very hesitant to get involved, although we have been told on several occasions that they were willing to do so on a very narrow mandate. At this point in time, there have been no meetings going on for the last year.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

That land in question is part of a very large development that's occurring in northeastern British Columbia. Has that been a major factor in the B.C. government's efforts?

[Dave Haggard]

I would only be guessing, but if I were a member of that nation, I'd be suspicious.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Has the Government of Canada, which agreed to their going ahead in this direction, put any substantial effort into getting B.C. on side?

[Dave Haggard]

Not enough, and I say that not facetiously or anything else. I think success will finally show through when the federal government starts to put pressure on the British Columbia government.

We have those issues all along the border. We have them with Acho Dene Koe. We have them with the Kakisa Dene. B.C. is very reluctant to get involved in cross-border negotiations. For a resolution for Acho Dene Koe, there's going to have to be pressure put on B.C., I believe, by Ottawa.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Payne for five minutes.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm glad I can have another round of questions.

I understand, of course, that you've had discussions with the minister, and I'm sure he shared some of his frustrations with you as well.

Ms. Pierre, I'm not sure if you're aware that one of the things this committee is looking at studying, of course, is first nations land management. We certainly believe this will be a fairly broad study. In particular, we've had some discussion and will receive information on economic development for first nations and how it will benefit first nations. Certainly land modernization will create opportunities for communities and will provide stable, predictable investment opportunities.

I believe in your opening remarks you talked about economic development. What topics would you like to see in this study that would help benefit all concerned?

[Sophie Pierre]

Beyond the supports that are needed for the treaty process, so that we can start recognizing those economic benefits--the study you mentioned about land management--there are other initiatives that are directly related to, if I can put it this way, helping Indian reserves to work. That's what we're talking about with the land management act. We're talking about the Indian reserve lands. We're not talking about the treaty settlement lands. That's going to be a different scenario.

We see that things like the land management act are very real stepping stones. They help first nations learn how to manage their land within the Indian reserve. When they're at the point of managing larger treaty settlement lands, they will be in a position to do so. All of that capacity building will have happened.

We totally support that. There are other areas, too, where the Indian Act, the way it is now, can be enhanced so that it does benefit economic development. One of the major areas on all of our Indian reserves across this country, mine included....

I served on my council for 30 years. I know just how difficult it is to get support for putting in infrastructure for economic development. Indian Affairs does not have that as a mandate, so there's no money out there. The banks don't look at us because we're Indian reserve lands. There's nowhere you can go to get the financial resources you need to put in that infrastructure.

And yet every community around us has that infrastructure. If somebody wants to set up a little store, they go to the local municipality, they get the permit, and they hook into the water and sewer. Try to set up a store on an Indian reserve. You have to find your own water. You have to find your own sewer. You have to do all that. The infrastructure doesn't exist.

There's no funding to do that infrastructure from Indian Affairs--nor should there be, quite frankly--but there is a way that we can pool our resources as first nations, the way the municipalities do. We have something called the First Nations Finance Authority. If you're not familiar with that, I'd ask you to become familiar with it.

Through the First Nations Finance Authority--right now we're under the auspices of the MFA, the Municipal Finance Authority, which gives us triple-A ratings--we can go out into the bond market and raise our own money for that infrastructure.

It's taken us 15 years of fighting with every bureaucratic inertia to get this thing to happen. I had anticipated that we'd be able to put out our first bond, which would probably be in the neighbourhood of $100 million, this year.

Well, I'll tell you, folks, it's not going to happen this year. We still don't have all the little ducks in a row. Hopefully it will happen next year.

That will be a time when all Canadians can celebrate, when first nations communities can come together. We can support each other, just like all of your municipalities do, to create that infrastructure for economic development.

I know I went a little way off the treaty thing, but it's not just all about treaties; it's about how we prepare and how we can use what exists now, which is the Indian Act and the Indian reserve lands, to help us move forward so that we are in a position to take full advantage when we have treaties settled.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Yes, I hear what you're saying.

It's interesting, because you talk about communities coming together. In my riding, although I don't have any reserves, I do have a number of smaller communities who've gotten together to provide services, not only in the larger centre. It does seem to make total sense to do that, to share resources and get people working together. So I think that is certainly a good approach to try to solve some of those problems.

[Sophie Pierre]

Yes. I'll tell you, the banks are going to look at Indian reserves a little bit differently when we get that FNFA done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much.

Committee members, we are going to do what we don't often do, and that's get to our third round of questioning. However, I'm going to have to ask that we limit our questions and answers to three minutes for the question and the answer. That way we can get through the third round.

Committee members, if you would indicate who will be questioning from your respective parties, that would be helpful.

Ms. Duncan, you have three minutes.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay. I'll be real fast.

This has been mentioned somewhat, commissioners--the delays and the problems with reserve extraction and development and so forth, which could include urban development, in the interim period. Obviously first nations can get very distracted by trying to either seek a piece of the benefits of a development, royalties and so forth, or be involved in fighting or litigating or intervening against it.

I'm wondering if the commission has taken a look at, or if you've seen it in your role, making some kind of recommendation for some kind of measure to be in place so that they protect the interests of first nations while the treaty negotiations drag on.

[Sophie Pierre]

Right from the initiation of this process, when the task group report was put out.... There is a recommendation--I believe it's recommendation 16--that speaks specifically to interim measures. That was the whole point, that it was not right that the first nations have to wait until some years down the road when a treaty is signed before they start benefiting from the resources within their traditional territory. The intent was that those would start immediately.

So we do have that built into the process. It just hasn't always worked exactly the way it should. It's a weird situation. B.C. has gotten frustrated with the slowness of the process, so they're going off and doing these bilaterals, which we agree with, but we also say,“Don't get too far ahead.” We have to make sure that these bilaterals tie back into the treaty, so that we have not just a 10-year revenue-sharing agreement, but we have an agreement to share revenues into the future, so that after 10 years you don't have to do the whole thing over again, which is what's going to end up happening.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Do the bilaterals include an agreement that they get a certain portion of royalties or an interest in...?

[Sophie Pierre]

There are different kinds of bilateral agreements, and some of those, like the one I mentioned in my territory....

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Is it legally binding?