Evidence of meeting #27 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was community.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rod McCormick  Professor and Research Chair, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual
Michael DeGagné  President and Vice-Chancellor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual
Gwen Healey  Executive and Scientific Director, Qaujigiartiit Health Research Centre
Jakob Gearheard  Executive Director, Ilisaqsivik Society
Margo Greenwood  Academic Leader, National Collaborating Centre for Aboriginal Health

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Good afternoon, everyone. We'll come to order.

First off, apologies for the late start. You may have heard that there were votes in the House and we were all held up there, but we'll get right under way.

Welcome, also, to the folks in the gallery. We're happy to have everyone here.

We are meeting today on traditional Algonquin land, for which we are grateful.

We have two panels today. For the first panel for the first half of the meeting we have appearing as individuals, Rod McCormick, professor and research chair at Thompson Rivers University, and Michael DeGagné.

Welcome to you both.

Although we're starting about 20 minutes late, we are compelled to finish at the usual time of 5:30, so we'll be having each panel for 50 minutes instead of 60 minutes. We'll share the 20-minute loss between the two panels that we have this afternoon. It just means there might be one or two fewer questions after, but you'll have your full allotment of time.

You may speak in whatever order you would like. You each will have the floor for 10 minutes, and I yield the floor to you.

3:50 p.m.

Dr. Rod McCormick Professor and Research Chair, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

Members of Parliament, observers, and colleagues, it's an honour to appear before your committee on the unceded territory of the Algonquin peoples. I would like to commend the dedication of the members of this committee and thank you for the important work you're doing on behalf of all my relations. Niá : wen.

My name is Dr. Rod McCormick. I'm a member of the Mohawk Nation, Kanienkehaka. I work as a full professor and B.C. government-endowed research chair in aboriginal health at Thompson Rivers University.

Before moving back to my partner's home on the Tk’emlúps te Secwepemc Indian reserve, I was a psychologist and counselling psychology professor at the University of British Columbia for 18 years. I've also been a psychotherapist and clinical consultant supervisor for the last 27 years.

Because of the limited time available, I'll confine my comments to two of the objectives of your study.

I'll start with the factors contributing to an elevated risk of suicide. I would like to focus on one method of assimilation and colonization used by Canada that was intended to separate indigenous peoples from primary sources of meaning and strength. I believe that this disconnection is one of the greatest factors contributing to the elevated risk.

A theoretical explanation can be found in logotherapy developed by Viktor Frankl, a Jewish psychiatrist who survived the extermination camps of Nazi Germany. Frankl found that individuals and cultures can survive if they have a strong reason for living. This can be found in sources of meaning such as spirituality, work, significant relationships, contributing to one's culture, and so on.

Through colonization, our experience has been one of disconnection from those sources of meaning. Disconnection from family was experienced as 120 years of residential schools that separated aboriginal children from their parents. For example, my children's Kye7e, or grandma, attended the Kamloops Indian Residential School from the age of 5 to 18.

There was a disconnection from communities. Communities were relocated to reserves and often relocated once again when the government chose to do so. Communities have also been split by various means such as forced replacement of traditional community leadership, with elections imposed by the former department of Indian affairs, and so on.

Disconnection from culture meant that cultural practices such as the potlatch and the sun dance ceremony were often banned or prohibited, and speaking one's language in residential school was punished.

There was a disconnection from spirituality. Every effort was made to replace traditional spirituality with Christianity.

Disconnection from the land resulted from the government's policy to relocate aboriginal peoples to urban settings when possible, to speed up assimilation.

I'll just mention a couple of other contributing factors. One that this panel has already heard about is that suicide has been normalized. The predominant community gathering for most communities has become the funeral. As one colleague said, we're becoming a culture of death. We've also become disempowered to the point where we are no longer “response-able,” i.e., able to respond to crises.

Another point I'll mention is that the government still doesn't understand an indigenous world view. The government uses a mechanistic world view in dealing with indigenous peoples. The idea is that one can create change using drivers, levers, determinants, and so on.

Now, I'll talk about protective factors that help to reduce the vulnerability.

My research with indigenous peoples reveals that one of the paths to healing is reconnecting to those sources of meaning we've been disconnected from; reconnecting with family, community, culture, nature, the land, and spirituality. In addition to reconnection, a meta-analysis of my 25 years of research and practice regarding healing with indigenous peoples indicates that healing leads to one or more of the following: empowerment, cleansing, balance, discipline or responsibility, and of course connection and belonging.

Going back to that mechanistic world view example, I thought I should explain. One of our newspapers, the national indigenous newspaper Windspeaker wrote up a presentation I gave a few years ago in which I told Health Canada to stop pushing. We are pulled towards healing, not pushed. Causes push, reasons pull.

Another article titled, “Get out of the way, and let Aboriginal people get on with health,” states:

McCormick was highly critical of Health Canada’s approach for strategic planning for Aboriginal long-term health planning and the department’s use of “mechanistic” language. Health Canada has been in the business of pushing. . . . We are instinctively pulled towards reason for living a good and healthy life and it’s not instinctive to be pushed. And I think when we’re pushed we tend to be resistant and that resistance can sometimes end up in self-destructive behavior. He believes that Health Canada has “to remove the barriers,” which he noted included such factors as lack of access, lack of culturally-appropriate programming, and short-term funding, and allow Aboriginal people to seek healing through traditional and cultural means.

I'll give you one example of my research and it was published in the Routledge International Handbook of Clinical Suicide Research, and that is a chapter in their own words, “a retrospective exploratory study of how to facilitate healing for suicidal indigenous youth”.

By means of interviewing 25 first nations participants who recovered from being suicidal, they provided examples of their own experiences in healing by describing what was done and what action was taken to facilitate healing for them. If we look at the categories that facilitate healing and recovery for suicidal first nations youth, in descending order of significance, I'll just read the top 10, as follows: self-esteem, self acceptance; obtaining help from others; changing thinking; connection with culture, tradition; responsibility to others; expressing emotions, and cleansing; future goals, and hope; spiritual connection; learning from others, role models; and connection to nature.

The study indicates that there is an abundance of potential healing resources that exist for indigenous youth who are suicidal. It also has the potential to reorient the way indigenous communities and practitioners view the nature and source of mental health services provided to them. In recognizing that the natural healing resources of youth themselves can be effective sources of healing, indigenous community leaders may feel empowered to start examining ways to utilize these methods of healing in addressing youth suicide in their communities.

Given that 13 of the 22 categories involve cultural and spiritual practices, the results of the study suggest that it is necessary to understand the belief systems and world views of indigenous cultures before applying theories and techniques of healing.

Among the other factors—just to finish up here—is the idea that we need to ask the real experts, as I did with this study. I believe communities must find out what works to prevent suicide by asking those who have recovered from being suicidal, because it's important to acknowledge the coping and healing resources that exist within the individual, the community, and the culture.

Obviously we could develop training programs to cover off those 22 categories that deal with positive self-esteem, self awareness, emotional literacy, cultural identity, communication skills; and life skills such as problem-solving, decision-making, values clarification, relationship skills, and stress management. I think another witness said that we have to ensure that our youth have the necessary skills to succeed.

I'd just like to touch on unresolved grief and trauma. We need programs such as those formerly offered by the Aboriginal Healing Foundation that can provide healing resources and programs to deal with unresolved grief and trauma.

As well, I don't believe the video conferencing capabilities, at least in B.C., are being utilized for mental health. There are some logistical safety issues regarding therapy but until they are worked out the facilities could be used to provide support, supervision, training, and consultation to community workers. A 24-hour consultation line, for instance, could be developed for workers such as community health nurses, who could consult and debrief with a senior mental health professional.

Concerning the use of ceremony, many indigenous communities have historically held community events and ceremonies that assist youth in reinforcing their personal and cultural identity and their connection to the community and culture, such as the naming ceremony.

The slow transformation in indigenous health research—wearing my other hat—is a good metaphor to use with regard to indigenous healing. In the beginning research was done on us—we were the guinea pigs—and then for us as we hired researchers for things like land claims, etc., and then with us as research ethnical guidelines required meaningful partnership.

Eventually research will be done by us. This transformation will require an investment in capacity-building.

The last thing I will just mention is that I am developing a centre called All My Relations.

It will be a new research and training centre to help indigenous communities to identify and, in many ways, reclaim traditional healing resources, such as the naming ceremony I mentioned. It is hoped that there will be a lateral exchange of these healing approaches between indigenous communities and training in the use of such approaches, if requested.

I'll stop at that.

Niá : wen.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you so much, Dr. McCormick, for that. It was very well-timed. I appreciate it.

Mr. DeGagné please, you have the floor for 10 minutes.

4 p.m.

Dr. Michael DeGagné President and Vice-Chancellor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

Thank you very much for the welcome to your territory and for your important work.

I'm here today to offer a few remarks and answer questions about, first of all, my work as the president of Nipissing University here in Ontario. I'm a first nations person from northwestern Ontario.

I'm going to speak specifically to 15 years of work at the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, which preceded my work at the university.

The Aboriginal Healing Foundation was a structural response to a very serious problem in first nations, so I think you can draw parallels and analogies to the work you're doing here. We were set up to address the legacy of physical and sexual abuse in residential schools, and we received an endowment from the federal government that provided us a number of advantages, not the least of which was that we were allowed to invest that endowment and stretch that money for what, at the end of the day, was 17 years.

We began in 1998. We did both funding and research. Led by a board of directors of 17 aboriginal citizens from across the country, we provided funding to 1,300 community projects that were residential-school specific. We were also responsible to monitor those projects, to ensure that money was used wisely, and that healing outcomes were achieved.

We supplemented that with $50 million in research over the course of the life of the foundation, in health, healing, reconciliation, a suicide project, etc., so I would say 30 pieces of research conducted across the country and, at the end of the day, publishing that research to ensure it had widespread use and uptake.

As a mechanism for addressing a very serious problem, like the one you're facing here, it had several strengths, not the least of which was that it had a national aboriginal board. It brought together perspectives from across the country. Secondly, we sustained funding from an endowment. You heard Dr. McCormick reference that, but non-short-term funding. I cannot say enough about the power of sustained funding, the idea that a project that is working in a small community that has very little else to sustain it, doesn't have to shut down for months at a time while funding applications weave their way through bureaucracies. Also, there's a consistency in the individuals who are working on these projects and a capacity to develop greater and greater skills as time goes on.

It doesn't sound like a long time, but some projects that were funded by the foundation were funded for up to 10 consecutive years, and the human resource capacity that was developed to address serious health issues in that time was quite remarkable.

Let me get into some of the community strengths. First, the foundation supported capacity for some and capacity development for others. It's an important distinction, and one that's actually very rare. Often what happens is capacity is developed or funding programs are developed that fund everyone equally, so that everyone is either equally happy or equally disappointed, depending on how you look at it. This formula funding that's rolled out often means that communities with a tremendous amount of capacity and capability are under-funded, and those that have very little in the way of capacity to deal with health are funded for something they have no ability to deliver. We see this happen across funding in the aboriginal community.

We focused on communities that had the capacity to deliver in-community programs. These programs were of their own design. They were a wide variety of counselling services, land-based programs, and elder-driven programs; it depended on what the community was prepared to offer.

Surprisingly, many communities found a way to blend traditional practices with western practices, so this was not a knee-jerk reaction to return to traditional means of delivering counselling services. You often found a blend. Communities used the tools that were available to them to best effect.

In terms of addressing suicide, I wanted to supplement Dr. McCormick's position on the historic transmission of trauma. The notion we are left with sometimes is that a lot of the suicide we see today had its genesis in the residential school programs many decades ago. This is a very difficult idea for us to get our heads around, the idea that something that could have happened decades ago might affect our behaviour today.

I think we have some interesting and robust evidence that's coming out of various places. Amy Bombay and her colleagues at Carleton University have shown how health outcomes for successive generations who did not attend residential schools, but are descended from aboriginal people who attended residential schools, are negatively affected by the fact that they come from a family of residential school survivors. I think this is something we really have to focus on.

Let me offer in the next minute or two a few notions of what I would recommend in terms of a national response to aboriginal suicide. First, however we find the mechanism, a sustained funding presence is absolutely critical. For those of you who have spent time discussing a variety of issues in the aboriginal community, you know the problems we have with funding applications. We see applications that begin at the beginning of a fiscal year. People often don't see money until halfway through. They have to rush to spend it in six months, and it reconvenes again at the end of the fiscal year when they apply again.

What you have is spasms of activity that are not consistent within the community. I cannot say enough about the importance of a sustained funding presence for programs that address suicide.

The second recommendation I would make is the review and use of existing consultations. There are some very rich consultations that have occurred across the country. The NAN territory has been consulted several times on the issue of aboriginal suicide. I know many of you have been active in that area as well. I don't know that we need more consultation on this. I think what we can do is take a good hard look at the consultation that's already gone on and review the directions that have been set already. There's great research and there are great consultations that already exist.

My third recommendation is that we tend toward community-developed programs, and in communities that have a track record of capacity in these areas. I recommend allowing the community to develop its own programs and then working with that community to offer sustained funding.

I would remiss if I didn't mention something about the importance of universities in all this. My concluding remark is that university-led programs that combine western and traditional counselling are emerging, and I think they hold real promise, especially for northern communities. Too often we see southern-trained or western-trained psychologists and psychiatrists who go into aboriginal communities; they have no intention of a sustained presence, and they leave not long after many wounds have been opened. What we're looking for is people who have been trained locally and can work locally in an ongoing way.

Those are my recommendations, and I very much appreciate the opportunity to address this group. Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you very much, Dr. DeGagné and Dr. McCormick, for your remarks. We're very grateful for those.

We'll move right into a round of seven-minute questions. Members will have seven minutes for both the question and the response and, as always, I'll try to urge members to get to the point of their question as soon as possible, so we can hear more from you.

The first question is from Mike Bossio, please.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

To speak to that sustained, long-term, stable funding, from 1998 to 2014 you received $350 million in funding that you were able to expand through other means, I assume, to $536 million that went to 1,345 communities. Why did it end?

4:10 p.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

Dr. Michael DeGagné

The government at that time was under no obligation to continue it. It had been extended twice with small amounts of money. We originally received a $350-million endowment up front in the trust of our national board. It was discontinued because there was the sense, as was explained to us, that there was no sense that we would continue on indefinitely.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

How many people did you have working for you? How many counsellors were there?

4:10 p.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

Dr. Michael DeGagné

We would have had hundreds of them in the 1,300 programs we funded over the course of that time. Many hundreds of people either arrived at community projects and worked for them or were trained on the job in community programs.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

At the end of this, you had locally trained counsellors who could counsel individuals on healing practices for indigenous peoples in 1,345 different communities.

4:10 p.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Long-term, stable funding and self-government for indigenous peoples to allow them to establish their own priorities have been raised many times in this committee. Do you really see that they have to go hand in hand?

4:10 p.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

Dr. Michael DeGagné

Yes, I do. I think you have to have long-term, sustained funding to help people develop capacities to keep going, right?

The Aboriginal Healing Foundation was provided with an additional endowment. From that endowment, we funded all future operations and a $50-million research agenda based on interest alone.

If you have the right group and the right funding profile, you can provide funding and leave people alone to manage their own affairs and generate their own capital so they can sustain themselves and make a huge impact in the community.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Would you agree, Dr. McCormick?

4:10 p.m.

Professor and Research Chair, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

Dr. Rod McCormick

Yes. It's a shame that you couldn't just operate it from the investments. I don't think government works that way.

4:10 p.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

[Inaudible—Editor] process, right?

4:10 p.m.

Professor and Research Chair, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

Dr. Rod McCormick

Yes, there is set funding for five years, or whatever. I worked for some of those projects, some of the long-term ones, and saw tremendous capacity being developed, and then it was all gone, disbursed. The elders were trained to work with the healing programs. Without the continued funding, things fell apart.

It was really bad timing. It was at the beginning of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, so it didn't logically make any sense to take away the mental health programs and supports when they were starting this huge process to get people to talk about their past hurts and so on.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Do you think it is, from a self-government standpoint...? I know it's not one size fits all. I think that's become very clear in the testimony so far. Is it possible to do it reserve by reserve, or should it be, like the model we have now, done provincially, municipally, by county? Do we have a Mohawk nation—I have Mohawks in the Bay of Quinte in my riding—at the nation level provide a certain level of service, like the provinces would, and fund it to that degree, then at a local level have municipal, council-led reserves receive different funding?

4:15 p.m.

Professor and Research Chair, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

Dr. Rod McCormick

Possibly. I think there were all kinds of variations under the Healing Foundation. Some were run by tribal councils quite effectively, others by just small communities. I think the idea is that the community has to feel empowered—as I said, response-able—to take on that responsibility. I was a fly-in psychologist for Health Canada for 10 years, and that certainly wasn't empowering, nor very effective, I have to confess, in terms of addressing mental health needs.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

The Mohawks at Bay of Quinte have a number of youth counsellors. One is a close friend of mine. When there are youth he finds who are kind of heading toward trouble, he will have weekends when he takes them back to the land. He calls them “back to the land”. They spend a weekend and camp out on the land and have a fire. All cellphones and electronic stuff are gone. It's just him and the youth. There might be a couple of them around the campfire just talking about what's bothering them, what's making them angry, or the issues they're struggling with.

I had the good fortune of going to Haida Gwaii and meeting with the Haida Gwaii Watchmen. Steven Nitah has come to our environment committee, and I've met with him and talked about the rangers. I've met with Valérie Courtois, who is leading the charge on the guardians front.

There is this whole notion of getting indigenous peoples back to the land. Do we need long-term stable funding to bring these types of long-term programs to indigenous peoples because of the positive benefits they provide?

4:15 p.m.

Professor and Research Chair, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

4:15 p.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual

Dr. Michael DeGagné

I think, certainly, the proof is that when a community is left to its own devices, to design its own programs, that's often the road they take—the idea of going back to the land, and going back to traditions. I don't know if Dr. Kirmayer will be here, but he's talking more and more about the idea that the traditional supports for mental health involve going back to the land.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you so much.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you for that.

The next question is from Cathy McLeod, please.