Evidence of meeting #60 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you.
Because I am from British Columbia, I want to talk a little about the loans, the $30.4 million. How much is outstanding in loans right now?
9:30 a.m.
Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I have that number. You'll have to forgive me; it's somewhere in my notes.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
9:30 a.m.
Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I can get back to you, if you wouldn't mind. I apologize for that.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
We do have some claims that have now been settled in British Columbia. In terms of the financial component of the settlement, were those loans repaid with the money from this settlement?
9:30 a.m.
Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
As part of the B.C. treaty process, when we get to a settlement stage we take into account the loans that are outstanding at that time. We ensure that this is part of the calculus of the settlement and they get repaid as part of the settlement process. That's correct.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
So in British Columbia you have cleaned off the debt of all those that have been settled. There are not a lot, as I understand it.
9:30 a.m.
Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That's correct.
My colleague has just helped me out here. Since 1993 the BC Treaty Commission has allocated approximately $675 million in negotiation support funding. That's about $519 million in loans and $156 million in contributions to date. One of the things I do as the chief financial officer is that before the settlement, I don't sign off on the cheque until I know if there are any outstanding loans related to that first nation, and make sure there is a set-off prior to payment.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Approximately how much is it costing each first nation? How many have been resolved, and how much has it cost them? What percentage of the financial settlement has it tended to take in terms of the payment?
9:35 a.m.
Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Each first nation has its own dynamics, and therefore their needs will be different. There's not what I would call a general kind of—
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
But how many have reached a stage where they have final settlement? It's less than five, is it not?
9:35 a.m.
Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I'm not so sure.
Just to provide a bit more information for you, Ms. McLeod, we provide 80% of the funding to first nations in the form of loans. Vote L20 is part of that. Another 12% is in the form of contributions. The B.C. government provides 8% of the funding also in the form of contributions.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Maybe you don't have it here, but to me it's a pretty logical piece of information. Perhaps you could table it. Out of the very few settlements that have happened, typically how much has been required in a loan—I know that sometimes these processes are 20 years plus—and how much has it taken out of the settlement? I think it would be some important information for us to have.
9:35 a.m.
Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I just found it. I'm sorry. Timing is everything.
As I mentioned earlier, in terms of loans to first nations in B.C., we have paid out $538.7 million, and $18.2 million of that is for groups that have settled. They are being repaid according to a concluded agreed schedule of repayment. That leaves $520.5 million, Ms. McLeod, for groups that are still in negotiations.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
That's at a more granular level. With regard to the $18 million, how many does it represent, and how much does it represent of the final settlement, the outstanding number?
9:35 a.m.
Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That level of detail I can get back to you on in a written response, if you don't mind.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
June 1st, 2017 / 9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
Thank you, Paul and the team, for joining us once again.
Going back to the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ruling, I was trying to follow what you were saying. I know that the minister has outlined the spending, but I'm wondering if you could specify in terms of the timeline what a longer-term investment in this area would be and what kind of strategic objectives the department has with respect to addressing many of the underlying issues with respect to the ruling.
9:35 a.m.
Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Thank you for the question.
I can't necessarily provide a direct answer to your question, only because the minister has been very clear that this has to be co-developed in terms of reform with first nations and provinces and territories, so we need time to work that reform strategy out. In the meantime, we do acknowledge the principle espoused in the tribunal in terms of immediate relief. We're trying to do the immediate and the long term at the same time by putting money into the space, but at the same time trying to work out how we reform the system so that we don't have to deal with the magnitude of the problem in terms of the number of kids who are in care and in jeopardy. It's a parallel process going forward.
The reality is that in any engagement in co-development there is just a necessity for time. We need time to work that out, because we need to make sure we are not imposing a top-down, Ottawa-developed solution upon first nations and their kids and communities in terms of how this system needs to be reformed.
There are going to be impacts on the over 100 child and family agencies across the country on this, and there is a jurisdictional issue with the provinces and the territories as well, so it's complicated. We need all parties to come to some degree of consensus before we move forward to seek cabinet approval on a reform plan.
I apologize for not being able to respond further. All I can do is provide you with the operational context on program reform moving forward. But the intent and the willingness are there, and the immediate relief that we provided demonstrates an earnestness to respect the tribunal's order.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
With respect to the 4,900-plus payments based on Jordan's principle, what does that primarily relate to? Do you have a breakdown in terms of what those jurisdictional issues are? Are you able to get some agreement with the provinces, or does the province send a bill and we pay it?
