Evidence of meeting #22 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was peoples.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bob Bratina
Thanks very much, Ms. Augustine. It's much appreciated.
I'm going to ask for a motion to extend. Our first round of questioning will take us past the hour. I need a motion to extend with—
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bob Bratina
Thank you. That's been moved by Mr. Schmale.
(Motion agreed to)
That's carried. That will allow us to get two full panels of questioning in.
The next questioner I have will be Mr. Viersen for six minutes.
Arnold, please go ahead.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank you and the witnesses for being here today.
We are dealing with a bill that's actually quite a short bill. I have it up on my screen here. It does not take very long to scroll through it. I think if you print it off it's maybe two pages long and then there is the schedule that contains the entire UN declaration.
The crux of the bill, in my opinion, is paragraph 4(a):
4 The purpose of this Act is to
(a) affirm the Declaration as a universal international human rights instrument with application in Canadian law.
That's probably the meat of the bill. The second part is to establish the framework for the implementation.
I will cycle through the witnesses and ask each of them if they support the bill in its current form. Maybe I could have just a yes-or-no answer on that.
Mr. Saganash.
He's giving me the thumbs-up.
Can I hear from our other witnesses as well?
Ms. Augustine.
12:45 p.m.
President and Chief, Native Council of Nova Scotia, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
I do not with the way it's written at this time.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Okay.
I'll ask our third witness as well, Ms. Lightfoot.
12:45 p.m.
Canada Research Chair in Global Indigenous Rights and Politics, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Yes.
12:45 p.m.
Canada Research Chair in Global Indigenous Rights and Politics, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Thank you. I do support it, although I have heard calls similar to those of Ms. Augustine for some amendments, and I think through conversations and through these discussions and these committees, those can be sorted out. I think it's important to listen. Even Mr. Saganash had a few points that needed clarification and resolution. I think that's the purpose of this committee, but generally, yes, I'm in support.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Ms. Lightfoot, I'll stick with you. What would be one recommendation for an amendment that you would put forward?
12:50 p.m.
Canada Research Chair in Global Indigenous Rights and Politics, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
I'm going to leave that to the process, because I think that's where you need to hear from the stakeholders, the rights holders, themselves, as Ms. Augustine stated, and let them bring forward their suggestions. I am not actually a rights holder in Canada—I want to point that out—and I'm not going to speak for those who are.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
I'll go to Mr. Saganash and ask him to explain how the declaration being applicable in Canadian law improves our current jurisprudence and improves upon the hard-fought and -won battles in terms of the court decisions. Do we not risk undermining some of those court decisions by now introducing an entirely new system of law into Canada?
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Let me say this from the outset: The courts have already confirmed that provision that you read to us. The courts are using the UN declaration—referencing the UN declaration—to interpret domestic law, and that's been going on for many years. Our human rights tribunals, provincial and federal, were using the UN declaration even before it was adopted by the UN General Assembly.
What Bill C-15 does is it confirms what the courts have been saying, and the interpretation in how courts have been using international human rights instruments like the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
What this bill will add, in my view, is that.... As a member of Parliament, you know that the Minister of Justice has an obligation under section 4.1 of the Department of Justice Act to make sure that any legislation, before it is introduced, is consistent with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We don't have the equivalent for aboriginal rights and treaty rights in this country. Bill C-15 will provide that.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
On that point, Mr. Saganash, if I google “Bill C-15 UNDRIP”, the first thing that comes up is the APTN article on concerns around consultations on Bill C-15. That's the challenge we are going to have bringing in this as the application in Canadian law.
What's the body that governs the aboriginal opinion in this country, the indigenous opinion? That's going to be the big challenge.
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Arnold, before responding to that question, I want your interpretation of what consultation is or what it consists of. Please define that for me, because—
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
I would say that the right to consultation, the need for consultation, has been clarified by the courts.
We have a brief from the electrical suppliers of the country outlining how over the last seven years, they've dramatically improved their consultation process to ensure they're abiding by the court decisions.
That's the worry around this. Does this not introduce an entirely new system?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bob Bratina
I'm sorry to interrupt, but hold that thought. I'm sure it will get discussed—
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bob Bratina
I'm sorry, but we have timelines to work through.
Hold that thought.
Gary Anandasangaree, you have six minutes.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First off, let me begin by acknowledging that I am speaking to you from the unceded lands of the Algonquin people in Ottawa.
I want to thank the panel, and particularly my good friend Romeo Saganash. We dearly miss him in Parliament, but I know he's not that far away when we need to reach him.
Thank you, Romeo, for your enormous leadership.
I was able to witness your work around Bill C-262 from the time you introduced it to the time it passed the House, and the enormous work you put into it. I want to thank you for that and, of course, the work leading up to it with the development of UNDRIP.
I want to get a sense from you, Romeo, about the type of engagement you did leading up to Bill C-262. You were on this committee before, and when we travelled as a committee to many parts of Canada, people would come up and say, “Romeo, you came here this summer. You talked to us.”
You had extensive engagements throughout the process of Bill C-262. Can you maybe give us a sense of how deep that was throughout the time that you were developing this bill?
12:55 p.m.
As an Individual
First of all, Bill C-15 is pretty much similar to Bill C-262. I think the engagement we've done around Bill C-262 was pretty much thorough throughout the country. I've met with indigenous and non-indigenous communities in town halls to explain Bill C-262 and to explain what the UN declaration is all about, and I've answered the questions or concerns that people had about Bill C-262 at the time.
I can tell you that throughout my travels across the country, I did not leave one town hall, whether indigenous or non-indigenous, where people were opposed to Bill C-262 or the UN declaration. That work, I think, is a legacy in going forward with Bill C-15. We calculated that the indigenous organizations and communities that adopted resolutions of support for Bill C-262 represented approximately one million indigenous individuals in this country. That engagement has been extensive and it was comprehensive, and I think that's a legacy we can take on in moving forward with Bill C-15.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
Thank you, Romeo.
Ms. Lightfoot, could you comment on the implementation of UNDRIP in B.C.? Many of the concerns, I think, that are raised by some of the opposition would lead us to believe that the implementation of UNDRIP in B.C. has severely affected the movement of business there.
Can you comment on how it was implemented in B.C. and the relative success or unsuccess that you see in its implementation?
12:55 p.m.
Canada Research Chair in Global Indigenous Rights and Politics, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
I have to point out that the bill passed in late 2019, only a few months before the pandemic began, so I would say that implementation here in British Columbia is still at a very early stage. We are still waiting on the action plan, but that has been a bit disrupted by the pandemic and the conditions in the province, especially in indigenous communities.
The province did table its first annual report, which you can google and find online. It is substantive. There are plenty of good-news stories to report out of British Columbia. Of course, there are some bad-news stories to report out of British Columbia as well. To my mind, this is a normal part of political conversation and of the political context. There will be successes, and there will be failures. It's our responsibility to sort through those.
It's important to note that those successes and those failures do coexist simultaneously. I also want to point out that it is quite normal, if we look across the country, for there to be policy successes and policy failures on any issue, and also contestation. This is a normal element of politics and any sort of political decision-making.
To address the earlier comment as well about what is the indigenous opinion on any of these issues across the country, well, it's as diverse as the non-indigenous opinion on any political topic. I just would like to bring to you that this norm and what we understand as normal in everyday politics extends to indigenous peoples as well.
