Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 22nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 108 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We recognize that we meet on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the committee is meeting to study the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2025, which were referred to the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. This includes the Canadian High Arctic Research Station, vote 1; the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, votes 1, 5, 10 and L15; and the Department of Indigenous Services, votes 1, 5 and 10.

Before we begin, I'd like to ask all members and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

Please take note of the following preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including our interpreters. Only use a black, approved earpiece; the former grey ones must no longer be used. Keep your earpiece away from the microphones at all times, particularly when the red light is on. When you're not using your earpiece, place it face down on the sticker provided on the table for this purpose; there are now stickers for left- and right-handed persons.

Thank you, everybody, for your co-operation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Our witnesses and members who are online have gone through the approved sound checks, so we're good to go.

Note that photos are not permitted while the committee is in session.

I'll introduce our first panel, starting with the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Indigenous Services. From the Department of Indigenous Services, we have Gina Wilson, deputy minister; Candice St-Aubin, senior assistant deputy minister; Paula Hadden-Jokiel, assistant deputy minister; Catherine Lappe, assistant deputy minister, child and family services reform, by video conference; Marc Sanderson, assistant deputy minister, education and social development programs and partnerships sector; Danielle White, assistant deputy minister, strategic policy and partnerships; Marc Geoffrion, director general and deputy chief financial officer, planning and resource management; Jessica Sultan, director general, economic and business opportunities, lands and economic development; and lastly, Jonathan Allen, acting director general, education and social development programs and partnerships.

Colleagues, before we start today, there are a couple of things to go through. Minister Hajdu has a hard stop at 5:30 as she has a commitment. She has a five-minute opening statement, which will take us to 10 minutes past five o'clock. We have two hours of resources; in fact, I think we have a deviation to go beyond that if we need to, but we will only have the minister until 5:30.

I'm wondering if we can do the first round of questions at five minutes, and then if we want to keep the Indigenous Services officials for the second half-hour, we can do that. We're just not going to get to everybody if we do six minutes at the start.

Let's start, Minister, with your opening statement. Then we'll get into some rounds of questions.

Minister, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Minister of Indigenous Services]

Thank you very much, everybody, for having me here. It is a real pleasure to be with you on the unceded and unsurrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. I look forward to being able to answer your questions today on the main estimates for Indigenous Services Canada. You heard that we have a whole host of professionals here with me to answer those questions.

With $21 billion in its 2024-25 main estimates, Indigenous Services Canada supports indigenous partners in delivering the important services that exist in every indigenous community. Some of the department's top priorities in terms of the work that we do—and, I would say, priorities of the community as well—are things like supporting indigenous children and youth and families, increasing the educational outcomes for indigenous students, improving access to health services and funding infrastructure in first nations communities.

Over the last several years, Canada has made significant investments in the first nations child and family services program to help better support first nations and first nations child and family services agencies in providing culturally based family supports that will address and bring down the overrepresentation of indigenous children in care by keeping children with their families.

We're also continuing our work with partners in devising a fully reformed program so that this program never returns to the abysmal state that it was in over a number of decades. Reducing gaps in education for indigenous students compared to other students in Canada is also a priority. With over $3.4 billion dedicated for education in these estimates, first nations, Inuit and Métis students will be able to access better educational opportunities.

Of course, funding of over $6.2 billion from these estimates will support better health outcomes for indigenous people, including providing better access to high-quality health services for indigenous communities, reducing systemic racism within our health systems across the country, and closing socio-economic gaps between indigenous peoples and others in Canada.

This investment will also significantly advance the work with Inuit partners to eliminate tuberculosis across Inuit Nunangat by 2030. It will also support the continued implementation of Jordan's principle so that first nations children can quickly access the services and supports that they need when they need them.

Lastly, investments of over $4.3 billion will support community infrastructure in first nations communities. This includes the innovative Watay project, also known as the Wataynikaneyap transmission project. It's Ontario's largest and most far-reaching indigenous-led transmission project. Once completed, it will connect 14,000 first nations community members to reliable electricity, electricity spanning over 1,800 kilometres. This will eliminate dependence on costly diesel fuel, improve connection and healthy socio-economic and environmental conditions, and decrease costs for communities over the long term.

I have to say on a personal note that it was very exciting to be in a community as they switched the lights on and to see the celebration of community members knowing that they had clean, reliable electricity in their community.

On April 18, for example, Sandy Lake First Nation was connected to the transmission line, and it is the 12th of a total of 16 first nations that will be connected to the grid. Almost $1.5 billion of the 2024-25 estimates is going towards supporting Watay.

As you know, the main estimates identify planned government spending and the spending authorities for which our departments seek Parliament's approval annually. As the main estimates are prepared in late fall, they don't include spending items announced in budget 2024. However, that said, through budget 2024 investments, we'll continue to build on the momentum that we're seeing. Since 2015, there's been a 180% increase in investments towards indigenous communities and around 25% of the investments in budget 2024 target indigenous priorities.

More than half of overall budget 2024 infrastructure funding is allocated for first nations on reserves. Thanks to the report produced by the Assembly of First Nations on closing the infrastructure gap, we can better plan for new approaches for that significant gap.

Indigenous Services Canada is assessing the investments and impacts of budget 2024 to its ongoing services, and how budget 2024's $2.3 billion over five years will renew existing programming. The federal government focuses on building relationships with indigenous partners by addressing past harms, increasing dialogue, supporting community capacity, fostering inherent self-rights and advancing a fair fiscal relationship with indigenous peoples. Budget 2024 makes investments in priority areas that will deliver an economic boost to these communities.

As previously mentioned, we're here to discuss the main estimates from my department, not budget 2024, but I look forward to discussing in more detail the budget 2024 investments at a future appearance, which I believe is on June 3.

I welcome your questions, I look forward to our conversation today, and I applaud your interest in pursuing reconciliation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you, Minister.

We're going to try to squeeze in four six-minute rounds of questions, and then at that point, we will release all the witnesses for Indigenous Services Canada. I know that's going to make it really tight for the minister, so I'm going to have to ask everybody to be as on point as possible.

The other thing, members, is I just want to remind you that at the last meeting when we had ministers, there was some talking over each other when mics were on, and we can't have that happen. It makes it impossible for the interpreters to do their job. It makes it impossible to have meetings in both official languages.

Today, I'm going to ask you to make whatever statements you want and make them as long as you want, but when a question is asked, please allow the minister time to respond. If you want to make a point, continue talking. Once a question is asked, I think it's only reasonable to give the minister time to make an informed response.

I'll ask for that. If we can't follow those rules, I may have to suspend, and that will further eat into the time we have.

Let's get through this as quickly as we possibly can, and have a good discussion.

With that, Mr. Brock, the floor is yours for the first six minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, are your department's contracts, particularly those under the indigenous procurement program, thoroughly reviewed for potential fraud and criminality? What mechanisms are currently in place to detect and prevent such issues?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, MP Brock.

I will say the work we're doing to ensure that we have a list of indigenous businesses that can benefit from the procurement policy of the federal government is very important. In fact, it's part of the economic reconciliation agenda to make sure that the spending of the federal government actually benefits indigenous-owned companies and companies that are indigenous-led.

As you know, and as I've answered at this committee before, my department works closely with other departments to make sure that they have access to that list. We also provide audits upon request by other departments or, certainly, if we've heard complaints by specific partners—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Minister. I'm reclaiming my time.

Dalian Enterprises received $8 million to work on the ArriveCAN app. It is a two-person company that works out of a basement. It performed no IT work. It simply acted as a middleman, connecting the government with IT professionals.

What percentage of the work subcontracted by Dalian was given to indigenous businesses?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Just give the percentage, Minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I've said it here before. First of all, that particular company is under a postaudit.

I will also say—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, give the percentage, please.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—it's important that we continue to realize what the point of the indigenous registry is.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, give the percentage, please.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The point of the indigenous registry is to make sure that—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay. You clearly don't want to answer the question. I'm going to move on.

In 2014, there was an internal audit of the program, which recommended that the government increase the number of preaward audits, postaward audits and random audits. In those 10 years, how many audits have been completed?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

One of the exciting things about the work we're doing on the procurement strategy—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Just give the number, please, Minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—is actually transferring control of—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, give the number, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. Brock, I'm going to ask you to hold to allow the minister to provide an answer.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—determining who is indigenous to indigenous people.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair. It was a very specific question.

How many audits have been completed in the last 10 years?

This minister is deliberately not answering the relevant question I put to her. Where the minister continues to deviate in her responses, I will continue to interrupt. Canadians who are watching this, Chair, want answers to these very important questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I will afford you that opportunity to ask the questions, but we need to give the minister the time to respond. We cannot have people speaking over each other.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

But she's not responding, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

She's attempting to respond. Let's see what she comes out with as far as....

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

How many audits?