Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 22nd, 2024

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You asked us a few questions, so I'll try to address them all.

To start off, I don't want to belabour the point we heard from some other members, but I also agree that it's unacceptable that we weren't able to have either minister for the full hour. I understand the explanation you gave—I just want to make that very clear, as well. It's very much standard practice that the ministers do everything they can to honour the time, regardless of votes and how things may change. This is quite unusual and certainly quite concerning.

To that end, because we invited Minister Hajdu back, I think we should offer the same to Minister Vandal. If that can't be done before the date to report back, I don't think it's necessarily an issue. I do think it's important that we hear from them, even if we have already reported back.

For next week's meeting, we have a lot of important stuff to get through, so I would suggest that, if it's possible and if we have the resources for a three-hour meeting, it would be favourable for us in order to fit that all in.

Lastly—and I know other members have their hand up—I think we're probably going to have a few other things to discuss based on the questions you put before us, so I would suggest we let the witnesses go.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Is there agreement from the committee to allow the officials to go? Then we'll look at the point of inviting Minister Vandal back. There would be 15 minutes on the clock for him.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We thank our witnesses for being here.

You're released for the day.

We'll go back to Minister Vandal's office to see if he's available to come back to finish out the time we had asked him to be here for.

Mr. Desjarlais, I have you next on my speaking list.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll have to beg your pardon. I think we both know that you as the chair of this committee have the power to second resources for the purpose of executing the mandate of Parliament and of this committee, which is to ensure that ministers, in this case, on the main estimates, are made present. Other committees, when they're suspended for a vote, will allocate the difference of time to the end of the day in order for the meeting to take place as parliamentarians have the right to exercise their voice on a question that the government needs to answer.

What I have a preference for is co-operation of a chair that would make those rights possible. I'm not saying that I find you contemptuous of your mandate. I find it disingenuous, however, to suggest that the minister's calendar is paramount to Parliament. I would beg you, Chair, to take this into consideration in the future. It's your job to make sure that members of Parliament, especially when it comes to indigenous issues, ask these questions and that you take this seriously.

What I've heard around this table today is almost nothing other than the Conservatives talking about why the north shouldn't get stoves to heat their homes and then the very good questions from Ms. Idlout.

Second to that point, we then end the meeting short for credible questions on the resourcing of indigenous issues. We have to get real here. This is not how members of Parliament who are elected should be treated. The minister can't just come out here and say, “Oh, on my calendar, I have a dinner at 6.30. I'm sorry, John, but I have to go”. This committee is a committee made for the purpose of indigenous peoples and their policies. Until our chair can make certain that we're respected, the policies and accountability, important mechanisms of this place, aren't met.

Wouldn't you agree?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I would offer that there is no chair that controls ministers' calendars. As I said, I was tasked through a motion.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It's not about the calendar.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

No, we were asked—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Chair, it's not about the calendars.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

My mike is on now, so I'm going to speak in response to the concerns you've raised.

We extended invitations for the ministers. The ministers were very flexible today in adapting. The motion had been for three ministers in two hours. We now have three ministers for three hours. Votes have disrupted that. Minister Anandasangaree and Minister Hajdu have agreed to come back to give us the full hour that they had committed to. We will extend the offer to Minister Vandal to see if he's able to come back for the balance of the time. I agree that it is a very important function of our committee to look at where money is being spent through the budgetary allocations, and we've had disruptions today.

I can't compel the ministers to stay beyond the time. They have planned out their day. They know that we're here.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

But the committee could—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We had officials, and they were willing to stay to continue the discussions, but there was agreement from the committee to release them, and that's what we've done.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I feel like it's now a matter of a motion that's required to compel you, Chair, to make certain that the commitments of time made by the ministers are met. I believe this is something that the opposition should unite on, Conservatives, Bloc and New Democrats. We should formulate a motion at the next meeting to ensure that indigenous people are given a fair shake here, because this is unacceptable.

That's my last comment. I'm saddened that this is how accountability for indigenous people is met in committee. It's not fair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Next to my speaking list I have Mr. Battiste and then Mr. Carr.

Okay, go ahead, Mr. Carr.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Chair, respectfully to my colleague for whom I have.... This has to go through the chair, as you know.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Are you going to say more?

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

You have taken an opportunity, Mr. Desjarlais, to do a bit of grandstanding here about what you perceive—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Is talking about indigenous accountability grandstanding? Is that what you're saying?

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Can I finish?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Well, that's what you just said.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

May I finish?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You may finish, but I'm questioning your objectives here.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

May I finish?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. Carr, you have the floor. We'll get you to make your statement.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I believe it's been made fairly clear, Mr. Chair and colleagues, that despite the concern some members of this committee have raised, fairly enough, about the way in which today's meeting was undertaken, the important thing is how the adherence to the principles that my colleague across the way has raised, those of accountability and ministerial accountability specifically, will be undertaken. It just means we have to wait a couple more days or weeks in order for that to happen. If there is something pressing in the next week or so that, if not answered, my colleagues believe will jeopardize the outcome of a particular community, then I think it's fair for that to be raised and to be brought to the attention of the ministers immediately.

Given that the nature of today's visit was specifically in relation to the main estimates, I think it is reasonable that in light of the disruptions that occurred today, ministers Hajdu and Anandasangaree, upon the asking of the committee, as per Mr. Melillo's remarks a few moments ago, will return in order to meet the accountability measures that the committee expects of them. I take a deep breath here. I think it's a little bit far-fetched to suggest, when there has been a public commitment already on the part of the ministers to return, and a public commitment on the part of all members of the committee to reinvite Minister Vandal, that there is some type of evasion of parliamentary accountability here.

I also simply want to say to my colleague, perhaps he hasn't spent a lot of time around this table in the last couple of months, but we try very hard to be collegial at this committee, and we try to work with one another—