Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 5th, 2024

[Dr. Andrew Leach]

What I'm actually specifically talking about, for example, is the opt-in option from the First Nations Land Management Act. We started out in 1999, when there were at least 15 that went forward. After that, we said that they didn't have to change, but if they wanted to, they could opt in. I was just using that as the model.

Those who have gone in and done it and passed the motions in their communities to go forward on it have been reasonably happy and have benefited economically from the change.

I do go to some communities where they say that they'll never go down that path. I say that they don't have to. It's an opt-in option. I'm just using that as the example.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Okay.

Mr. Foss, do you want to chime in?

[Matthew Foss]

There's not a lot to say on that matter. I'll leave most of that to rights holders to speak to directly.

I would offer to you the importance of ensuring that those opt-in provisions don't create complexity for indigenous businesses and that indigenous businesses aren't subject to multiple layers of additional taxes and administration that might go along with that.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Do you see the indigenous loan guarantee program that we have announced—I think it was $5 billion in the last budget towards possibly helping indigenous communities by basically being co-signers for indigenous projects—as part of the solution towards closing the infrastructure gaps in many communities?

[Matthew Foss]

Absolutely. It's a great step into that space to ensure that capital is available and to get another tool through the loan guarantee towards access to capital. Hopefully, there will be more than just the $5 billion in the future.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Do you think NACCA shows a best practice for how you can start with a small number of loan programs and then have that build? Do you think this is possible from the indigenous loan guarantee program that's currently out there?

[Dr. Andrew Leach]

Okay, I'll take it. I'm the NACCA guy.

Yes, and I agree with what Mr. Foss said. If there's any tool that we have that we can put on the table that somebody can try to put to use, let's do it.

With respect to the indigenous loan guarantee program, we have been able to leverage as much capital as comes our way to find partners and to work with our communities to make that dollar go farther. If there's money on the table, it says that we wouldn't have done it except that now that this is on the table, we'll do it. That would be great.

The one tool that I have seen first nations use has been the First Nations Finance Authority. They use it to put infrastructure dollars on the table that they probably otherwise wouldn't have. However, if there's another avenue or something that they could add to that to continue building that infrastructure, that's great; we're all for it.

I have loved seeing the projects that have borrowed from the First Nations Finance Authority. They have put in a gas station, a road and other services, and they have seen the economic activity that has come from that. Now they are ready to go after something else. If this was another stream that they could do that with, that would be great.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Battiste.

Now we'll hear from a third member.

Mr. Lemire for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Meegwetch.

I'd like to start by highlighting a historic event that took place on Parliament Hill right before our meeting. The Anishinabe community was given the building at 100 Wellington Street, the former US embassy. This is a very concrete gesture of reconciliation on the part of the federal government, and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations. I point this out because rarely have I seen chiefs in my community and other Anishinabe chiefs so happy to be here.

I'd also like to acknowledge the contribution of former Anishinabe Grand Chief Verna Paulson in helping to make this happen. It was truly a very touching and happy event for the Anishinabe people back home.

My first question is for the representative of NACCA, the National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association.

Mr. Leach, should a national indigenous organization like NACCA be responsible for designating indigenous businesses as such? You're present in all our financial institutions and in all the regions. Your track record shows that you support entrepreneurs at business hubs and that you offer programs for women and young people, among others. The recent gala you held in Gatineau was a great platform for networking and a moment of recognition for indigenous entrepreneurship.

I must also mention the leadership and dedication of members of your board of directors. My warmest greetings go to Jean Vincent, Shannin Metatawabin, Dawn Madahbee Leach and Magnolia Perron. I believe that the federal government can achieve and even exceed the 5% indigenous procurement target. Clearly, you're in a position to guide us in the initiatives and directions we should be taking regarding procurement and access to goods and services, with a view to fostering economic reconciliation.

Can you tell us about the First Nations Procurement Organization? It's a first to maximize the potential of First Nations businesses to access procurement opportunities and secure contracts through certification, networking, education and promotion.

[Dr. Andrew Leach]

Thank you.

NACCA is in a unique place, I believe, because of what I mentioned, which is our access to entrepreneurs across Canada from coast to coast to coast.

The idea of procurement came up. It's developed over time so that now we have a pretty solid position on this. We have networked with our IFIs, our indigenous financial institutions, across the country.

This 5% target of government contracts going to indigenous suppliers makes sense. I wonder about the challenges of making that happen and some of the things we'd have to do on our side and some of the things you'd have to do on your side. How could we better get to that place where we want to be?

Certainly how we go about identifying those who are indigenous entrepreneurs and what that means and how we come up with certification are questions we have all asked. What's interesting is that when we started this process, we even had to go inside ourselves and ask what qualified as an indigenous business, and we had our own internal back-and-forth about what that possibly could mean. It's been a learning process.

Ultimately, at the end of the day, our entrepreneurs just want to do business. If given the opportunity, they would do it well. I believe that.

How do we go about creating that? What I have always found is that we have this side A and side B. There's this middle, where we have to create that space so that they link up better. If we can do that, however that might be, I think that's how we'll flourish.

I can't help but also think about the procurements that are available for first nations vis-à-vis industry directly. That's where we seem to have had the most progress. I've been to those offices right in first nations communities, procurement offices that are interfacing with industry directly, and lots of activities are coming from it. I think we could learn from them about how they do it and how we can imitate some of those things.

Quite frankly, a lot of it's about relationships. We're very good at relationships. We know that once we start that, we'll do it. Industry knocks on the door and says, “I need this piece of equipment. I need this skilled labour right away. Do you have it?” “Yes, we have it. What do you need?”

I think we need to look at that and start seeing how we might be able to imitate that for government procurement.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you for that concrete answer.

You mentioned the importance of recognizing indigenous businesses. In Quebec, the Identification First Nations, or ID1N, movement already allows indigenous businesses to be certified.

Is it a good idea to have an agency outside the federal government, or should we trust the federal government, knowing that things can happen? The ArriveCAN scandal is an excellent example. That said, the same is true of moccasin production: We can't certify that a contractor is truly indigenous when the federal government awards contracts. Things need to change.

How does an indigenous business obtain certification?

[Dr. Andrew Leach]

Thank you.

I think, quite honestly, bluntly and respectfully, that we know best who's indigenous and who's not. We do. If you give us the framework to create that, we will.

As I said, we've already started that process, and we've already started creating some goalposts. If we are given the mandate to create those goalposts so we know that they will be there, we will create them. I believe that once we've been given that mandate, we will create them.

Thank you.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.

I have to share the unfortunate news that we weren't able to get the grand chief's sound figured out. As long as it's the will of the committee, we'll be able to invite him back to provide the testimony that he was only able to begin today.

However, we are very fortunate that we have two fantastic witnesses here today to whom you can direct your questions.

With that, I'll turn the floor over to Ms. Idlout for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, panel, for coming here.

What you have to say is very important, and it is good to hear.

My first question is pertaining to the economic reconciliation by Indigenous Services Canada. It states here that they intend to work with indigenous partners. Please explain your participation, if any, in the development of the economic reconciliation framework, a framework that will remove barriers and support indigenous visions for economic prosperity.

Can you explain your participation, if any, in the development of the economic reconciliation framework?

[English]

[Matthew Foss]

We and a number of other indigenous organizations have been gathering to discuss economic reconciliation, and we're part of a group, along with NACCA, that created the national indigenous economic strategy with its 115 calls to economic reconciliation.

We've been very active and involved with respect to what that pathway looks like. As well, we gathered last month in Winnipeg with a number of other national first nations organizations to talk about what economic reconciliation means and needs, and we will be providing a report on that to government here, hopefully this summer or early fall, with our findings on that.

[Dr. Andrew Leach]

I was thinking about all the different experiences I've had when this issue has come up and how we've muddled through it, if you will, because it's been a new topic and a new idea in the last decade or so. However, certainly at the NACCA level—I'm a former chair of NACCA, by the way—when I sat at that table, we were interfacing with government on various projects and various issues, and this question of what was meant by economic reconciliation started coming up, so we had our own internal thing that we'd have to communicate back and forth.

In another life, right now, I actually teach courses on economic development with first nations institutes, and one of the questions that is coming up at that level is, “What is economic reconciliation?” One of the questions I ask my students is, “What is economic reconciliation to you? Here's some of the stuff that's coming up.”

What I've learned is that it means different things to different people, and we need to honour that it means different things to different people.

Also, in another area of my life, I work directly with first nations in interfacing with industry on getting reasonably sizable projects off the ground with first nations partnership. We have to educate each other about what is going on and how it's impacting the first nation from their perspective, and it takes time. I've sat with industry, and they've said, “Why would we want to sign an agreement that says that we will not abrogate indigenous rights?” We tell them that's it's kind of standard, but they don't know that, and so we have to educate each other about what we want.

What I've noticed is that generally speaking, for us, we don't have time constraints. Generations aren't a big issue for us on a project. We're thinking long term. We're not here to buy this and turn it over and flip it in 10 years. Ninety-nine year leases don't mean much to us, because we know we're going to be here in 99 years, and I think we just have to start getting into their mindset. They operate at the speed of business. Time is much different, so how we can understand each other and get business done, I think, is a learning process, but it's a good thing, and the more we learn from each other, the more we adapt to each other, and the more benefit, I think, can come from both of us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

You have about 45 seconds left.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Are we having a second round?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Yes, there'll be a second round.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'll finish for now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

With that, we will to the second round.

Going up first we have Ms. Rood for five minutes. The floor is yours.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for being here today.

Mr. Leach, you talked a lot about economic reconciliation. I have the pleasure of representing five different first nations in my southern Ontario riding. That is a topic of discussion that's come up quite often in my meetings with the chiefs, especially of late.

They've told me they want to be prosperous. They're seeking investments in their communities. However, they find that they're being stonewalled right now at every turn by the current NDP-Liberal government. One of their largest concerns is the lack of meaningful consultations. They feel that they're not being listened to.

In your experience, how has the lack of government consultation hampered reconciliation efforts? Do you see first nations being given a lower priority by this current government?

[Dr. Andrew Leach]

That's a good question. I've wondered about this for a while.

I'm in a unique place. We're in a unique place in British Columbia. I was just watching the news last night. The City of Vancouver has actually put an action plan together for UNDRIP. They supported and passed a law on it a long time ago. The provincial government has done a similar thing.

I've talked to my indigenous friends across the country, and they were saying, “You guys did that? Your governments are doing that?”, and I'm saying, “Of course. That's what we've done.” Then I was thinking, “Is there something there?” Then it just makes good sense that we create an open climate under reconciliation.

What is reconciliation? To me, it's looking at something from a different perspective and saying that I should keep my mind open that the way you're viewing this might be different from the way I'm viewing it. Let me try to understand what you're saying so that we can work together to come up with an outcome that's good for both of us. To me, that's the gist of what reconciliation is.

In that vein, I think there are areas where we could still continue to learn from each other so that we can say, “Okay, I get it now. That's what you're saying. Let's work on that.” I just feel we've been lucky over there. We're not struggling with that. We're not struggling with governments as much in agreeing to do business.

In my trading area, I have 50-plus first nations. In the Coast Salish territory, there are 50. Many of them are doing quite well, frankly. They just go to the table saying that this is their situation, so let's get together and work.

I don't think we have as much resistance on our side. I think we have a lot of entrepreneurship there to do some good stuff. It's just made for a good climate. It doesn't hurt that the property values are going through the roof over there, by the way. That's made some good business opportunities for us as well.

I think we've almost had a perfect storm, but I'd like to think we could model some of those things in other areas. I think it starts by just being open to trying to understand what the other side is saying and working with that in a good respectful way.

Thank you.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

You mentioned earlier about industry being in the backyards of many first nations, especially forestry. You mentioned the carbon tax.

Many first nations are in rural and remote areas. They don't have the ability to have roadways. They use ATVs and snowmobiles; they don't have traditional vehicles.

What is the impact of the carbon tax on these communities as far as you mentioned, and with food cost and development in those areas?