Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 17th, 2024

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

As a matter of clarification, Mr. Chair, the motion that was just passed was to adjourn debate on the motion. Does that mean that we'll return to our regular order?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Yes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'll be entitled to another round. Wonderful.

I appreciate everyone's co-operation here, and I hope the Conservatives can play nice while we have our witnesses here.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I didn't use my time. Do I get my time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Schmale, you have another minute and 20 seconds.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much.

I will go to Chief Haymond, if I could.

We uncovered during the testimony, when we were talking about this bill, that we recognize successive governments have made some progress here and there on solving, or trying to solve, at least, the issue of achieving clean drinking water for all. I recognize that it's not going fast enough for the vast majority and there are still massive problems here.

If this bill goes forward, do you see this bill, as it expands to source water and elsewhere...? The fact is that the consultation has been raised by many as an issue. The “Ottawa knows best” approach has been raised by many as a potential issue. Do you feel the voices of those on the ground will be heard if this legislation is given royal assent?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

Again, I won't speak for all of the other regions in the country. I'm here representing the interests of the Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador.

For all intents and purposes, even with the shortcomings that have occurred in terms of the process, as I've indicated, our chiefs are amenable to Bill C-61, predominantly because we don't have a lot of the same issues related to safe drinking water and access to water that a lot of other first nations do across this country. It's predominantly because we've set up strong support mechanisms, such as tribal councils and circuit rider programs, which ensure that we are working collaboratively with our federal partners at Indigenous Services, and for housing with Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation representatives, to address the issues being raised by and for first nations in Quebec.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale.

With that, we're moving to the second questioner in the second round.

We now go to Mr. Scarpaleggia for five minutes.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to continue along that line, Chief Haymond.

I remember attending a conference in Montreal on first nations water a few years back and being surprised to hear that there were no long-term boil water advisories in Quebec. I assume that's correct.

My question is on something you kind of touched on. I was hoping you could elaborate. Why is it that the situation seems so much better in the province of Quebec than in other areas of the country? Does it have anything to do with the philosophy that the Quebec government employed, especially around the development of the James Bay agreement?

I'd like your insights on that, because it sounds like something is working in Quebec and maybe we can all learn from it.

[Chief Lance Haymond]

Again, I'll go back to the fact that we've spent a lot of time, effort and energy in developing our own capacities to address the needs that are being raised in our communities.

As with most first nation communities across this country, we're small, independent communities and we don't have the financial resources to be able to have all of the expertise we need. We don't all have engineers. We don't all have folks who are helping us manage our water systems. We don't have the capacity to do water monitoring and testing on an individual basis.

Over the course of time, we've developed and learned that there's strength in numbers, and buying and building capacity can be done in a number of ways. In Quebec, we've chosen to build capacity by having strong operators and training programs, so that we have qualified people in our communities.

The most important aspect of why we're so successful is that, in spite of our differences, we sit down with our regional colleagues from Indigenous Services, we look at the problems and we look at the potential solutions, including the provision of a budget and what that allocation will look like on an annual basis.

We've built up the capacities we need at the tribal council level, so we have the engineers and the expertise we need to help us build quality plants and infrastructure. Then, more importantly, we have a circuit rider program that travels around all of the communities in Quebec assessing our systems and making suggestions for improvements in terms of training and what improvements need to be done to our systems. Then, we work with our federal partners to find the funding and implement the solutions.

In fact, we have no boil water advisories in Quebec, but we do have some communities that have to have continual drinking water. It's not because of poor facilities, but because their communities are built on uranium deposits, which continue to impact their ability to have quality drinking water. In fact, I referenced my sister community of Kitigan Zibi, which is probably the only community in the province that lives the reality of not having a safe drinking water supply, but it's not because of the facilities.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

That leads me to my next question.

You said that you've built up capacity. Do you think that Bill C-61 would allow communities outside of Quebec to build up that capacity, especially since it references, if I'm not mistaken, the creation of a first nations water commission? Would that not, in a sense, be replicating what you've accomplished in Quebec?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

It wouldn't be replicating it. I think it would be building on that experience. It would be building something that's representative and needed for all first nations across the board, not just those in Quebec.

Other first nations will be successful, but we have one huge hurdle ahead of us that we need to work with Indigenous Services on. I mentioned earlier in my testimony that there are two pieces that still need to be done. These are the regulatory framework and, more importantly, the funding framework. Without adequate funding for the investments that we need to bring our systems up to snuff, train our operators and ensure replacement of those assets as they reach the end of their life cycle, a lot of this work may be potentially for naught.

The funding framework and the negotiations for the huge needs that exist in first nations are going to be paramount to our ability to succeed going forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Scarpaleggia.

It's now over to Mr. Lemire for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Phare, you recommended improvements to Bill C‑61 in three areas. Since we don't have much time, I think it would be very germane to the study if you could send them to us in writing. That way, we could examine them closely. Thank you.

Mr. Haymond, the justice department officials said that the first nations water commission had limited powers.

How might those limited powers prevent the commission from effectively fulfilling its mandate of providing support and managing water issues affecting first nations?

I asked the question given the limitations on another commission preventing it from properly fulfilling its role of protecting and consulting first nations like yours. I'm talking about the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, of course.

Should this be seen as a limitation or a red flag? Thank you.

[Chief Lance Haymond]

I think duplication is absolutely something that we don't want to have, but we believe that having our own water commission is paramount to our being able to develop and address our own issues and bring the potential solutions going forward.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Were you surprised or concerned by the answer the justice officials gave the committee last week when they were here? I asked them about the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission and its lack of knowledge regarding the dangers and risks of storing nuclear waste next to the Kitchesippi River, in other words, the Ottawa River.

[Chief Lance Haymond]

Yes, I'm always concerned with the government's response when they state and restate that they have full confidence in the entities that they've created simply for the purposes of approving licensing, such as the CNSC.

It absolutely concerns me when we know that the CNSC has never rejected a nuclear project in spite of all the concerns and preoccupations that are being raised by not only first nations but non-indigenous citizens who are going to be directly impacted as well.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

With that, we're going to go to our last questioner of the day, Mr. Desjarlais.

You have two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to try this for our Inuit interpreter. I'm going to ensure that she has a heads-up as I'm going to practice my Inuktitut. I'm going to say qujannamiik to the committee for having me here today. It means a lot to have been a participant in this very important work and to have our wonderful witnesses here, particularly Chief Sunshine from Alberta. I'm usually outnumbered as the only Albertan in the room, but today we did it. We're maybe the majority; I don't know.

I want to continue our discussion and highlight an overview of where first nations have been on the pathway of trying to get clean water for their communities. Stephen Harper promised clean water before in an act in 2013 that passed. It was a huge class action lawsuit. One of the lawyers who is present with us today, one of the witnesses, mentioned that.

I'm stuck with this kind of paradox, this dichotomy, this tough decision that I think first nations are also dealing with, which is the decision of really bad legislation under the Conservatives and bad legislation under the Liberals. The answer is in first nations communities, not really in Ottawa, and I think you've outlined that, Chief Sunshine.

Do you want to speak to that principle about ensuring that this place recognizes first nations' jurisdiction, because so many times they've got it wrong?

Please go ahead.

[Chief Sheldon Sunshine]

Thank you for that.

When I think back about the previous legislation by the Conservatives and it being challenged by first nations, I'm afraid that this is going to be the same type of thing that's going to happen. It's going to roll out, and we're going to have nations such mine that are not happy being put in that little box continually.

I told Minister Hajdu that we really need to sit down with the rights holders and determine the best path forward. I know that Treaty 8 chiefs have always mentioned that we were willing to sit down and have those talks, but, for myself, on behalf of the Sturgeon Lake Cree Nation, I am open. We're progressive people. We have those challenges that we face every day, as I mentioned earlier, and we want to work with the government to create something that's beneficial for all parties.

When we talk about source water, we want to have a say on what comes into our territory and into our homes. When we see the Grande Cache spill, that affects us. It affects the fish, and we have endangered species because of it.

I think it's important that we understand where we're coming from and where you're coming from so we can find a solution to move forward.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Desjarlais.

That ends this portion of the meeting.

I want to thank all three witnesses for being here today and for their very important testimony. This will certainly be very informative as we move ahead with the study and perhaps with amendments to the bill if it comes to that.

[Merrell-Ann Phare]

Mr. Chair, could I respond to the question that the member of Parliament asked me about providing my comments in writing?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Ms. Phare, if you're able to provide those answers in writing, it would be well appreciated by the committee so that we can look at that as we move ahead with the study.

[Merrell-Ann Phare]

I just need to provide a moment of context around that, if you would permit me.