National Defence Committee on June 17th, 2024

[VAdm (Ret'd) Darren Hawco]

No worries.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I really enjoy cutting you off, Admiral.

Mr. Collins, you have two minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

The DPU talks about a changing character of conflict. There are more references to cyber and cyber-attacks in this document than ever before. It talks about and addresses misinformation and disinformation, and what others are doing in the world to disrupt our institutions here domestically, as well as those of our allies.

I was going to turn to you, Mr. Cormier. You talked about overpoliticized national security. I'm fascinated with what's happening south of the border, with the Republicans and where they're going with Ukraine. There seems to be a split caucus there. I think some of that misinformation and disinformation is working quite well in the United States.

It's happening here as well, of course. The Leader of the Opposition has pulled his support for Ukraine, and there's this quest to try to get as many people in the tent on the right side of the political spectrum as possible. Much of that's being driven by misinformation and disinformation on social media.

Can I get your thoughts on how the DPU addresses that and where we're going with that issue?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

I just couldn't hear one of the words that Mr. Collins said. He said something about the Leader of the Opposition and support for Ukraine. I didn't hear the word in between.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I think it was his lack of support—no support for Ukraine.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It was “pulled”, I think.

Okay. Go ahead.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Yes. I think the witnesses heard the question.

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

There are two things.

One thing that I thought was very well done in the DPU is the description of where the world is in terms of the risks. I think, on that level, it's very well presented.

With regard to Ukraine, I think it's really fundamental that we all recognize that if Ukraine loses, the world is a much less safe place in the future. This is because it tells those who are seeking to disrupt the status quo that it can be done in imperial ways, just by taking over your neighbour if you see fit, and that no one is necessarily going to hold you to account and push you back.

With the first war in Iraq, when they tried to invade Kuwait, there was a sense that the world would not tolerate annexation in this way. Even though the Americans went to Iraq years later, there was never a sense that Iraq would become an American state. It was not a war of annexation.

Once you start allowing that to happen, it gives other states a lot of ideas. I don't think we want to live in that world, and I think Canada has probably the most to lose as a medium-sized player in a world that doesn't have rules.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Collins.

[VAdm (Ret'd) Darren Hawco]

The only brief observation I would make is that there's a nexus between a national defence review and a national security review, so when we discuss issues of information, misinformation, coercion and the like, that's where there's an interplay between those two processes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Ms. Normandin, you have one minute.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

You talked about the need to increase munitions production, which is currently insufficient. We know that the government has not yet signed a contract with any companies. On the other hand, the Americans are doing it. A contract was signed in Salaberry‑de‑Valleyfield, for example, to increase production.

Are we not being outcompeted locally?

[Dr. David Perry]

My translation is not working, but I think I caught the gist of that.

I think we have been far too slow to actually put in place real mechanisms to leverage Canadian domestic production for a whole number of things, including ammunition. We've been spending a lot of time talking about that, and we need to get contracts in place.

[VAdm (Ret'd) Darren Hawco]

We also need to achieve that in the long term. We need a defence industrial policy that makes sense and has long-term projections. It's something you cannot surge. You cannot surge defence industrial capacity. It has to be planned for and paid for in an enduring way.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have one minute.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You talked about this multi-party, non-partisan commitment moving forward, yet you're also stressing the 2%. Is it concerning to both of you that none of the party leaders in this present group has ever committed to 2% in the future?

[VAdm (Ret'd) Darren Hawco]

Yes.

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

I concur.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You also said the world will not accept annexation, yet we see how that's simply not true, currently, in the Middle East.

Can you explain your commentary in relation to that?

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

It's too early to tell whether annexation is the purpose, or if removal is.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is the defence of natural resources the purpose?

[Dr. Youri Cormier]

I wouldn't be able to say.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay, that's fine.

[A voice]

They're calling us back after suspension.