Evidence of meeting #27 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean-Claude Bouchard  President, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency
Judy Smith  Vice-President, Cumulative Environmental Management Association
Scott Streiner  Vice-President, Program Delivery, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency
Peter Sylvester  Vice-President, Policy Development, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

5 p.m.

Vice-President, Program Delivery, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Scott Streiner

I wouldn't want to answer definitively—and we can look into this a little bit further—but I would say that are essentially three groups. There are the two you've described. Probably the majority of people who seek funding and come forward are not arguing vigorously to stop the project or to let it go as proposed. Normally what they're arguing for is modifications to the project to reduce the environmental footprint. I would say that's the majority, but we have examples of each of the other groups that you've described as well.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Okay, I think I have another minute here. Your agency falls under the environment minister's department?

5 p.m.

President, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Jean-Claude Bouchard

The minister, not the department.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Under the minister, right?

5 p.m.

President, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

I don't know if this is a state secret, but what is the annual budget for your agency?

5:05 p.m.

President, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Jean-Claude Bouchard

The annual budget is $16 million. We have 150 employees altogether and we have six regional offices in Halifax, Quebec, Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Vancouver.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Okay. Last question. Typically, what mechanism would be used to flow money through to proponents? Would it come through a particular panel that was set up? Would the funding come through them or would it come through, say, somebody like Community Futures or some agency that is already established as a cheque-writing agency?

5:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Program Delivery, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Scott Streiner

No. It's a direct contribution. A contribution agreement is signed between the agency as a representative of the Crown and the recipient to funding under the participant funding program. So we use a regular contribution agreement.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

So your agency can actually cut the cheque?

5:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Program Delivery, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Scott Streiner

Yes, we can.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

I see. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:05 p.m.

President, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Jean-Claude Bouchard

If I may, Mr. Chairman, $1.5 million a year is the fund that we have. Mackenzie gas is a separate project when it comes to participant funding. There was a special allotment made by the government for Mackenzie. I wanted to be specific on that one.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Does your agency ever do environmental assessments on impacts of natural disasters or is it strictly development projects?

5:05 p.m.

President, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Jean-Claude Bouchard

It's projects.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Mr. Russell.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you very much.

I have a comment as to the participant funding. Being on the other end as president of the Labrador Métis Nation, I would certainly advocate for more participant funding. Most organizations that go through that avenue just cannot participate in a meaningful way in these panel discussions.

We got $13,500 for participant funding. Voisey's Bay Nickel Company spent $17 million or something in that range under environmental assessment down in Labrador trying to compete.

It seems to me—and my friend said it's an advocacy thing—the proponents will try to minimize any negative impacts, and they will bring every expert to the panel, when we are in that stage, to say that it has just about no impact. They will line up their experts. If you have the money, you pay for them and you bring them to the table. Those who say it has an impact then bring their experts. So you have this toing and froing, and somewhere in the mix you come out with something.

But the scoping of projects I think is a fundamental question, because how they're scoped really determines the nature of the assessment--whether it is a screening, whether it is comprehensive study sometimes, or whether the minister decides there's a public interest to going through the panel, so to speak. How do these things in the tar sands get scoped? With all of this activity happening, I would think the least you'd see is a lot of panels, to be quite honest--as least, from what I know about it. It seems that the way the proponents are scoping their projects is a key element.

5:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Program Delivery, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Scott Streiner

Let me respond quickly to your first point about participant funding. There is no question that there are more asks on the program than there is money. Of course we do our best to allocate the budget that has been made available to us, but there is no question that many applicants would appreciate having a richer program.

On the issue of scoping, you've absolutely hit on a fundamental issue. It clearly is critical. For those who have been less involved in this, scoping is really determining what the boundaries are, what project it is that will be assessed through the environmental assessment process.

The federal government scopes its involvement, and the provincial government scopes its involvement. Sometimes the scope of project to be assessed is the same, and that can sometimes facilitate a harmonized process between the two jurisdictions. Sometimes it's different, because the specific federal interest may be more limited. There may be, for example, a situation where a federal department is issuing a permit for one specific aspect of a much larger project, and because the province is looking at the larger project, the federal department may decide that it is going to scope only to the smaller element or component of the project.

So it varies from project to project. Then the determination ultimately lies with the federal departments, the responsible authorities who have to make a decision.

But certainly the scale and the depth of the environmental assessment are shaped by the scoping decisions that are made by government.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

That is crucial in this, because how you scope it determines the nature of the assessment.

Let's say we move to a panel. Then I think another critical point is the terms and conditions, or what is to be studied at the panel, what the panel is to review. It is absolutely critical. If you don't ask the panel, for instance, to look at CO2 emissions or greenhouse gases or climate change, you'll never get a recommendation coming out the other end, basically. So it depends; what you put in determines what comes out the other end from the panel.

Has there ever been a panel that has looked at CO2 emissions or greenhouse gases as part of their review in the oil sands?

5:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Program Delivery, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Scott Streiner

Have greenhouse gases ever been included in the terms and conditions? Yes, greenhouse gas emissions have been included in the guidelines for panels.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Has there ever been a recommendation from a panel regarding CO2 emissions?

5:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Program Delivery, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Scott Streiner

I would want to go back to check. There have only been two joint panels that have reported to date, between the federal and provincial governments. I would want to go back to check the recommendations.

In terms of the scoping panel, can I just clarify one issue? The scope that the government departments establish to assess a project will shape the nature of the assessment, including whether it is a screening or a comprehensive study; the referral to panel doesn't depend on the scope. I think this is an important point. The referral to panel depends on whether or not the department deems the potential environmental effects to be significant and on the level of public concern.

So the scope doesn't determine whether it goes to a panel level, but the scope will determine screening versus comprehensive study.

5:10 p.m.

President, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Jean-Claude Bouchard

The panel is also independent and may decide, for good reasons, to study a particular part that is not specifically mentioned in the terms of reference.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

I have just a very quick additional question.

On the aboriginal consultation, I think we're talking about the Haida case and Taku case in B.C., and maybe some others after that. How far along is that? It is causing some trepidation within the aboriginal community, and maybe within the business sector as well, those who are going ahead with projects. How far along are you with it, and what's the interim policy?

5:10 p.m.

President, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

Jean-Claude Bouchard

Scott is spending a very significant portion of his time on that.