Evidence of meeting #100 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was capacity.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gilbert Bennett  President, WaterPower Canada
Alex Simakov  Director of External Affairs, Energy Storage Canada
Trent Vichie  Chief Executive Officer, EverWind Fuels

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 100 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, November 29, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of Canada's electricity grid and network.

Since today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of all.

Before we begin, I would like to ask all members and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

Please take note of the following preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. Only use an approved black earpiece. The former grey earpieces must no longer be used. Keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you're not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the sticker placed on the table for this purpose.

Thank you for your co-operation.

By way of Zoom reminders, please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair. Additionally, taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted. In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I'm informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of this meeting.

Before I begin, I want to go to Mr. Angus, and then I'll begin with the witnesses.

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

5 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Chair, out of fairness to our witnesses and to my Liberal colleagues, who really want to get this study under way, and because we were shortchanged due to our technical problems, I'm wondering if it would be fair to have the witnesses speak and then do one round of questions so that we're not wasting their time for having waited for us.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

I don't see any opposition to that. I think we can proceed.

I will suggest opening statements and a round of five minutes each. Would that be fine?

Good. I will need a couple of minutes at the end of that for a couple of administrative items regarding the study we've adopted. I'll do that very quickly at the end of the proceedings today. Let's proceed with that.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses with us today. They are, from Energy Storage Canada, Alex Simakov, director of external affairs, by video conference; from EverWind Fuels, Trent Vichie, chief executive officer, by video conference; and from WaterPower Canada, Gilbert Bennett, president.

We have up to five minutes for opening remarks.

We will begin with you, in person, Gilbert Bennett, from WaterPower Canada.

5 p.m.

Gilbert Bennett President, WaterPower Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm Gilbert Bennett, representing WaterPower Canada. Thank you to the honourable members for the opportunity to appear before this committee today.

WaterPower Canada represents Canada’s hydro power industry. Hydro power provides 60% of Canada’s electricity, with over 82,000 megawatts in service.

However, electricity is only a piece of the puzzle, as fossil fuels supply three-quarters of the energy consumed by Canadians. Achieving our net-zero ambitions by 2050 will require us to double our electricity supply, repeating the past 100 years of work building the electricity system that we have today in the next 25 years.

Hydro power generation offers three important benefits to our electricity system. First is long-term storage. Hydro power with facilities with reservoirs provide massive storage capacity over a period of months. Second is flexible production, with the ability to control output as needed and with pumped storage to be able to store surplus energy for use later. Third is firm output. With water in storage, hydro power facilities can provide reliable and stable power when needed.

Canada’s electricity system is operated, maintained and, to a significant extent, owned by provincial entities. Notwithstanding the federal government’s role in aspects of environmental assessment, permitting and interprovincial transmission, the provinces are constitutionally responsible for electricity generation, transmission and distribution.

Electricity system operators and utilities operate within a provincially regulated framework that addresses reliability, cost recovery and the approval of investments. Except for a limited set of matters under federal jurisdiction, most environmental assessment and permitting responsibilities also lie with provincial authorities.

Ultimately, expansion of Canada’s electricity system will be approved by provincial electricity regulators, and absent any other source of financial support, costs will be recovered from provincial electricity customers. Each province is responsible for the development of its net-zero road map.

Historically, more transmission capacity exists between Canada and the United States, with less so between Canadian provinces. The rationale is straightforward: Canadian producers have been able to justify transmission investments so that they can participate in U.S. electricity markets, particularly when peak demands in those markets do not coincide with their own. This business case is not as obvious for east-west trade between provinces, particularly when market structures don't always facilitate real-time trading, but we need to investigate these opportunities on a broader scale.

Interconnecting larger areas provides greater diversity of supply for a larger region and provides greater ability for surpluses in one area to offset shortfalls in another. Interconnecting hydro power-producing areas with their neighbours extends the reach of hydro power reservoir storage more broadly. Interconnecting areas with high quality, variable renewables extends their market reach and improves their business case during periods of low demand in their own market.

Substantial expansion of our electricity system is required to meet our net-zero aspirations, but we are concerned with the challenges to developing projects in Canada.

The environmental assessment and permitting process for clean energy projects is long and arduous, and uncertainties created by the Impact Assessment Act, the Fisheries Act and the migratory birds regulations create unnecessary risk.

Clear timelines for decision-making do not exist, and prohibitions on necessary activities have been imposed without compliance mechanisms for project developers. Some departments, notably Fisheries and Oceans Canada, have created new compliance risks by creating uncertainty for existing facilities that were permitted decades ago. Federal programs that were meant to encourage investment, such as the clean electricity investment tax credit, are unnecessarily complex, have extraneous conditions and are set to expire before they are useful to developers of long-term projects.

Although climate change is an overarching priority for our federal government, processes and programs are not operating with that goal in mind and are focused on their own silos of responsibility. We are hopeful that the commitments made by our federal government regarding regulatory streamlining will achieve their intent.

Ultimately, our energy transition will happen when end-users, from individuals to industrial customers, decide to change their energy sources from fossil fuels to electricity. Those individual decisions will drive electricity consumption to justify regulatory approvals for generation and transmission projects.

Given the extent of provincial jurisdiction and the requirement for end-user action, our national government needs to consider itself as a change enabler.

Our summary recommendations are as follows.

Develop support for energy projects nationally. The scope of change expected will require large-scale projects everywhere in Canada.

Urgently streamline project approval processes and provide guidance to permitting authorities that energy projects are required to meet our net-zero aspirations.

Encourage and support regional planning initiatives to unlock the benefits of greater interprovincial transmission interconnection.

Support low-cost investments in alternatives to fossil fuel use with standards and incentives to encourage switching.

Finally, actively work with provinces and municipalities to address barriers to electrification and facilitate the change to our net-zero future.

Thank you again, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to present before the committee. I would be pleased to address any questions the committee may have at the appropriate time.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

Thank you, Mr. Bennett.

I should have said this at the beginning. I do use these cards: Yellow is a 30-second warning, and red is time's up. I will try to let you complete your sentence before cutting you off, but I will try to show this.

We will next go online to Mr. Alex Simakov from Energy Storage Canada.

You have five minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Alex Simakov Director of External Affairs, Energy Storage Canada

Good afternoon.

Thank you, members of the committee, for the opportunity to appear before you today.

My name is Alex Simakov. I'm the director of external affairs for Energy Storage Canada. We are the national voice of the energy storage and smart grid technology sectors, representing 97 members from across the country, a number that has roughly doubled in the past four years.

I want to make the case today that energy storage technologies have made tremendous progress over the past generation.

First, we're really good at making friends with other technologies. With nuclear generators, we're being co-located to reduce nuclear manoeuvring and optimize their output. With gas plants, we're optimizing response times, where batteries take a millisecond. It allows gas plants to fire up at a more gradual pace to respond to needs.

Our biggest customers are large industrials, who put us behind the meter to manage their peak demands and reduce costs for both themselves and the system overall.

We're also, of course, strongly paired with intermittent renewables so that when the sun doesn't shine or the wind doesn't blow, we have firm capacity that we can provide for our system.

I want to take a second to focus on Ontario to describe some of the key progress that we made very recently.

Last month, the Independent Electricity System Operator announced the results of the LT1 RFP, which is about two gigawatts—aiming for two-and-a-half gigawatts—of capacity. Clean energy storage secured 10 of those projects, and I want to leave you with three figures here.

The first is 24. Our costs dropped by 24% year-on-year decrease.

Two is 40%. That is the cost at which energy storage projects came in compared with the natural gas projects, on average a megawatt per business day.

And three is 90%. Nine of the 10 clean energy projects had first nations equity participation of 50% or greater.

All that means collectively is that today energy storage represents the cheapest form of new capacity in the system, period. It also means that Ontario, having completed its procurement, is on track to be the third-largest jurisdiction for clean energy storage in North America.

I want to reiterate Mr. Bennett's points, that our focus overall is on the doubling of Canada's national energy grid. That is the most consequential economic development opportunity of our lifetime, and one that our sector is committed to fully.

While it's led absolutely provincially, and great progress is being made there, there are major roles for the federal government to undertake in this regard as well. The first is ensuring sufficient transmission capacity. That is the existential choke point that is affecting all decarbonizing and electrifying economies. In the U.K., they're spending about a billion pounds per year on wasted wind electricity because they cannot get that power from Scotland to England. In the U.S., in some markets you're taking about a decade to get a new connection because of the constraints.

If we're looking for an investment case, it's certainly that. The choke point we are going to see on continued economic growth in Canada will be our ability to distribute and consume electricity because of a distribution and transmission system that cannot keep pace with an electrification and renewables build-out.

Two steps can be taken here.

The first is tax incentives for municipalities that welcome development. We've had, as energy storage, a [Technical difficulty—Editor] community welcoming us, and they are both eager and partly reticent, and we respect that reticence, and are happy to work with those who are eager to work with us.

That said, as we move forward and as the intensity and the frequency of clean grid asset connections continue, we are going to need to make sure that we are providing appropriate incentives for those communities that do step up and want to do the work. I don't mean just one-off cash transfers. We need to have systematic tax incentives for the municipalities that are keen to do that work and make sure that we have incentives for those that are reticent or reluctant to invest in new clean energy technologies.

Likewise, to echo Mr. Bennett's points, interprovincial interties are going to be critical. Historically, our provincial energy regulators and planners have looked southwards to export power to the States. We now have a great opportunity to incentivize them to build interties between provinces, not just to balance out the diversity of our demand profiles, but, more consequentially, the diversity of our supply profiles.

The third point is on ambitions and aspirations to phase out natural gas generation by 2035. Speaking as the representative of the sector that will be the foremost beneficiary of that change, I urge extreme caution on moving with prejudice on achieving a goal that is fairly arbitrarily set and is not aligned with system needs. To quote the ISO ,“the CER as drafted is unachievable in Ontario by 2035 without putting at risk the reliability of the electricity system, electrification of the broader economy and economic growth.”

We're on a rapid track to exceed decarbonization, and we want to make sure those gas plants are being used as little as possible, shrinking them to only the extreme days. But we absolutely need them for emergency and standby resources at a time when we're anticipating extremely hot weather events and other challenges coming forward.

Thank you.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

Thank you for your opening statement.

We'll now go to Trent Vichie, chief executive officer of EverWind Fuels.

Mr. Vichie, you have five minutes.

5:10 p.m.

Trent Vichie Chief Executive Officer, EverWind Fuels

Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to present today.

My name is Trent Vichie, the founder and CEO of EverWind Fuels Company, Canada's most advanced green hydrogen development. Our projects in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador are supported by our first nations partners, alongside a world-class renewable resource: Canada's east coast has exceptional wind, and it's a resource we should take advantage of.

In recent years, the urgency to get off coal and other fossil fuels—to green the grid—has been building. For example, in Nova Scotia, the province is committed to ending the use of coal by 2030 and using at least 80% renewable energy by the end of the decade. Green hydrogen production and its use are crucial to meeting those targets. In fact, Nova Scotia's “Green Hydrogen Action Plan” explicitly states that it is “a complementary option to help strengthen the electricity system.” This industry can be a flexible demand user, which complements renewable power as well as hydro in the overall mix.

This is precisely what our green hydrogen projects will help us do—not to mention the thousands of jobs and billions of dollars of economic activity they'll generate. We're working hard with provincial governments right now to secure an agreement that will start greening the grid in Nova Scotia, and to develop a very large project in Newfoundland.

However, like all nascent industries, standing this up requires support at all levels of government. Across the board, the energy transition needs support for investment in battery plants, transmission—which the former speakers talked about and which we echo—and flexible power uses in green hydrogen. This is why programs like NRCan's smart renewables and electrification pathways program need to consider how green hydrogen is helping us get off coal and reach shared federal and provincial goals to secure a renewable future.

We ask parliamentarians and officials alike to ensure these programs are created with the flexibility required to hit the targets we've set to banish coal to the dustbin of history. We must be swift, decisive and flexible in our public policy actions. The global race to provide clean energy to the world is on and competition is fierce. It's critical for the federal government to determine whether Canada will be a leader or a follower in this industry.

To reiterate my earlier points, I offer three recommendations.

Allow programs like SREPs to have the flexibility to support green hydrogen.

Building out the supply chains and infrastructure required for the energy transition is going to be a monumental task. Canada needs to encourage and support the manufacture of essential items like transmission breakers and switching equipment, which has been an increasing problem. Canada could stand up manufacturing in this sector.

Governments need to take a broad view of electrification to support the greening of the grid and the decarbonizing of hard-to-electrify industries.

In conclusion, there's no getting off coal and other fossil fuels without investing in transmission and supporting flexible users like green hydrogen. Transmission is essential for decarbonization. Wind power, hydro and even solar are complementary, but transmission is needed. This is something Canada needs to grab onto with force.

Clean power is an economic opportunity for Canada. The work that we and others are doing in this industry is going to drive a lot of economic growth if it's supported. This is Canada's moment, and we must seize the opportunity.

I want to thank you for your time today, and I look forward to your questions.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal George Chahal

Thank you, Mr. Vichie, for your opening remarks.

We will now proceed to our first round of questions of five minutes each. We will begin with Mr. Patzer from the Conservative Party of Canada.

You have the floor, sir.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you very much.

I'm going to start with Mr. Bennett in the room here.

In order to hit net zero on the grid by 2035, do you know how many hydroelectric dams it would take to replace all the natural gas power and expand the grid to meet all this new demand the government talks about?

Do you know what that number is?

5:15 p.m.

President, WaterPower Canada

Gilbert Bennett

I don't have it off the top of my head. That's a number I can report back to the committee on, though.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Have you done the research on it already?

5:15 p.m.

President, WaterPower Canada

Gilbert Bennett

We have not investigated every market in Canada. We certainly acknowledge that there are markets in Canada that don't have great hydro potential, but I would say at the outset that we are 10 years away from that goal. The development of any hydro project, including the environmental assessment and the construction process, would take us beyond 2035.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

What year do you think we'd be able to do that, realistically, with existing timelines and processes in place? At what point do you think we could build enough hydro dams in order to meet that demand?

5:15 p.m.

President, WaterPower Canada

Gilbert Bennett

If somebody said “go” tomorrow, we're in a six- to seven-year environmental assessment process and probably a ten-year planning and construction process, so we would be 2040—best case.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Okay. Thank you very much.

For EverWind Fuels, a similar question for you: If we were to hit net-zero electricity generation by 2035, how many wind turbines would have to be built in order to hit that target? Do you have that number?

5:15 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, EverWind Fuels

Trent Vichie

I don't. We're looking at building and supplying green hydrogen. It's a specialized industry, so I don't have a view across the entire country.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Okay. How many hydrogen units, then, would you have to build in order to hit net zero by 2035?

5:15 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, EverWind Fuels

Trent Vichie

I don't have those figures right off the top of my head. We can come back to you on that.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Have you done the research into that yet?

5:15 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, EverWind Fuels

Trent Vichie

We've been focused on our own business case, which is focusing on eastern Canada.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Okay.

Mr. Simakov, how many gigawatts of battery storage capacity would be needed for 2035 to be net zero on the grid?

5:15 p.m.

Director of External Affairs, Energy Storage Canada

Alex Simakov

If we could speak to Ontario in particular, right now we have 10.5 gigawatts of gas. We've contracted for three gigawatts of storage. To increase that, we'd need about another eight. You might want to say ten, just for additional comfort, so about 10 gigawatts. That's about threefold what we've contracted.

I think the critical point to stress as well is that if we do decarbonize all that gas with storage, that just gets us to the status quo of how much capacity we have. That's no additional capacity for electrifying transit and no additional capacity for electrifying homes. I think the key point, and the one you're getting across, is that we do need both, and we should scale up storage as quickly as possible and have gas as a standby and an emergency resource for when we need it.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Okay.

How long would it take to actually build that kind of capacity? I know that you only referenced Ontario, but what would it take to actually build the kind of capacity to hit what the government is suggesting needs to be done?

5:20 p.m.

Director of External Affairs, Energy Storage Canada

Alex Simakov

We could take a straightforward storage project from go: It would take about two years to complete reliably and comfortably. That's the current quantum.

The largest project right now in Ontario is a contract for 400 megawatts. At that point, we have a bit more flexibility compared to some of the other speakers in terms of location. We can have them everywhere. If we had a war-like effort to devote all the resources in the province to doing so, I think we could probably do it in maybe about a decade, above all other priorities.