Public Accounts Committee on May 14th, 2024

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Why did he leave CBSA?

[Erin O'Gorman]

He had an opportunity at Transport Canada, and that's where he works now.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

From December 2 to December 8, 2022, Mr. Gaspar took a trip to Bahrain. Are you aware of this trip?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I believe that was in the context of the World Customs Organization.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Are you aware of whether he did anything else while he was on that trip?

[Erin O'Gorman]

No.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Did he undertake any personal business while on that trip?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I don't know.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Did he attend the World Cup while on that trip?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I have no idea.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

You never asked him? You never asked why inflated costs were incurred for a trip to that region of the country during the FIFA World Cup, and you didn't ask if it was perhaps because of an interest in seeing a World Cup game?

[Erin O'Gorman]

There was a WCO meeting. He would have attended as our representative. If he took extra time at his own cost to see and do something else, I don't believe that is out of bounds.

I don't know if he went to see the World Cup, but if he did, I'm not sure that would be inappropriate.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Well, at the cost of tens of thousands of dollars to Canadian taxpayers, I might disagree.

[Erin O'Gorman]

Mr. Chair—

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Could you provide us with a list of all meetings that he undertook while in Bahrain?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Mr. Chair, I think it's important not to let it stand, without any evidence that I've seen, that somebody is accused of spending taxpayer money on personal activities. I'm not aware of that. If there's information to suggest that, I would be interested in seeing it.

I am happy to furnish the meetings that Mr. Gaspar attended while he was at the WCO. If he met other people on his own time, then that's a question for him.

I've not seen anything to suggest that he was using taxpayer dollars to do inappropriate things. If that's the case, we will look into it, but I think it's important not to let that accusation hang out there without any further information.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Ms. O'Gorman. As is my custom, you have the last word. I'm sure we'll return to this.

Ms. Bradford, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For Ms. O'Gorman, is CBSA reviewing Diane Daly's involvement in the ArriveCAN procurement process since Kristian Firth's questioning in the House of Commons on April 17?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Stepping back, as the committee is aware, there was a set of allegations put forward by a company called Botler AI. Those allegations were examined by our professional integrity division, which has undertaken various investigations relating to that.

Diane Daly was involved. At this point, I don't know the status of the investigation and whether she's being investigated or whether she is a witness.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you. Are there appropriate uses for subcontractors in procurement?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'll say this. Certainly there is a demand for companies to gather resources, take those resources to bid on contracts and furnish those resources to help departments carry out certain activities. It is particularly common in the IT space.

There's a certain amount of overhead that's offered by those companies, where the individuals don't have either the capacity or an interest in doing it themselves. I believe that Public Services and Procurement is well placed to testify to that, and it has.

Questions come up for me when those often small companies subcontract to multinational firms. I don't understand why that would happen. I'm not suggesting it is offside or illegal, but I do find it questionable. When the value added of the resourcing companies is to deal with the overhead of bidding, why would they then subcontract to major firms?

I think transparency around that would be very helpful, but is it offside to subcontract? No. It's done. The value added of some of these companies is to do that subcontracting, but why a two-person company would subcontract to a multinational, I don't understand.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Does consulting with companies occur before a contract or RFP is issued?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Again, I'm not the contracting expert, but my understanding is that a company would gather resources and, with those resources, bid on a request for proposal that's put out. They would then align those resources with the types of skills that are being sought through the request for proposal.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Why was KPMG selected as the subcontractor to GC Strategies?

[Erin O'Gorman]

As I have gone through the material and the information that has come to light, I've had that question as well.

I don't know that it is not permitted in the contracting rules. These are commercial relationships between companies, and there is one accountable company that holds the contract and is responsible for the resources that it furnishes.

I can understand the questions. As I said, I've had the question as to why large companies would be subcontracted. Perhaps there are resources that work for both of those companies. I don't have insight into those commercial relationships, but I understand that there's a lack of transparency in explaining those relationships.