Public Accounts Committee on May 21st, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I thank my colleagues for supporting this motion, and I thank the francophone media, who will now have access to these documents.

The issue of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is one that is very close to my heart and one that I have discussed with several members here.

We all agreed to invite its representatives. In their response, I think they completely disregarded what had been discussed in committee. It's a real pity and perhaps represents a lack of seriousness on their part, because we had discussed very openly the fact that the RCMP would not specifically be asked questions about the investigation. Everyone agreed on that. However, the RCMP could provide us with information on how they proceed with investigations such as the ArriveCAN investigation by means of examples so as to inform this committee and the general public, who want to know how this whole saga will end.

At the moment, all we're hearing is that the RCMP is conducting an investigation. It's all in the RCMP's hands. I think the whole population has a right to know what's going to happen. I feel the RCMP's response shows a total lack of respect for the work of this committee and for the trust the public has placed in them to investigate the ArriveCAN saga and the highly questionable behaviour of certain individuals, companies and public servants. I think it's important for the RCMP to appear before this committee. The RCMP is first and foremost a public service paid for by taxpayers. It must therefore answer certain questions.

I would like, with the unanimous consent of the committee, to reinvite the RCMP emphatically, as we have done for departments or agencies, to come before this committee and answer questions. We all agreed. We all voted in favour of the motion I put forward. I think it's important that the RCMP come in to finally bring the whole ArriveCAN saga full circle.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Shanahan, I will recognize you, but just for everyone's awareness, yes, you all received correspondence from the RCMP that they have declined our invitation to appear. Now the discussion is on if we wish to pursue this further.

Ms. Shanahan, you have the floor.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I remember very well the discussion we had about the RCMP. In my opinion, we wanted them to testify for educational purposes.

However, Mr. Chair, there's another subject that bothers me a lot. I think this subject is important for the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

It came to light today that members of Parliament declared expenses to go to a partisan convention, saying it was some sort of caucus meeting, but without providing any details or transparency about the nature of their expenses.

Every MP's office is paid for and supported by taxpayers' dollars. You know that very well, Chair, having yourself served as an advocate for Canadian taxpayers with the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

We learned today that it was the Conservative Party of Canada that was the largest user of taxpayer funds, subsidizing the travel expenses of their MPs, family members and staff to effectively attend a Conservative Party convention in Quebec City. It's very disappointing to learn this, especially when the Conservatives pride themselves on being guardians of the public purse, yet we see this flagrant misuse of parliamentary funds.

We don't have to go very far. It's very apropos that we've been discussing media and media coverage of different issues, Mr. Chair, and rightly so. The public accounts committee needs to be concerned with the use of taxpayer funds. Conservative MPs have racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses to bring their spouses and staff to political events. That is something that needs... We're not talking about just a few dollars here; we're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Mr. Chair, I believe you were a member of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, or a director or something. It's something that I know you're very proud of and that you have made reference to in your career. The Taxpayers Federation has called for the money billed to the House of Commons, through what is effectively a loophole, to be reimbursed in whole or in part. It stated that “Taxpayers shouldn't be subsidizing politicians—”

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have the floor, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, Ms. Shanahan. I did let you speak for a little while, though.

I'd like us to conclude the discussion on my proposal to reinvite the RCMP representatives. Let's agree on that, and then we can move on to the topic you want to raise. We have to proceed in the order in which topics are raised, so I'd like us to conclude the discussion on the RCMP issue, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

At this point, Mrs. Shanahan does have the floor.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Go ahead, Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I think it's just a matter of procedure that the topic of the letter was brought up first. I don't mean to prejudice against the important statements you're making, Mrs. Shanahan. It's just a matter of procedure, I believe, but the important issue is to make sure the RCMP are present here to answer our questions on ArriveCAN, and their investigation is important.

Maybe all that's required, Chair, is a confirmation on your part that we will send them a letter, in effect, as a response to what they said, and then we can continue on with Mrs. Shanahan, if that's okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Unfortunately, I do need a little bit more guidance than that. I'm certainly open to doing that, but at this point, Mrs. Shanahan does have the floor. I recognize, Madame Sinclair-Desgagné, that you were trying to make a helpful suggestion to begin the process, but a motion was not moved.

Mrs. Shanahan has the floor in committee business, so she will continue with her illuminating concern about tax dollars.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Rest assured that I will be moving a motion. I just wanted to outline what our concerns are. I have been looking to speak on this for quite a while.

Just to finish what was said by Franco Terrazzano, federal director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation:

Taxpayers shouldn't be subsidizing politicians to go to their political conventions. Political parties have a lot of money. Politicians have a lot of money. Normal working people don't. So this was wrong and the money needs to be paid back.

Mr. Franco Terrazzano is always a very frank speaker.

He's not the only advocate in this area who has spoken out on this and who is very cognizant that if there is a loophole, it should not exist. We also heard from Duff Conacher, the co-founder of Democracy Watch, who also called for the loophole to be eliminated.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

“The loophole never should have been put—”

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Excuse me, Ms. Shanahan.

We are listening, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I'd like to question your decision and return to the subject of the RCMP, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay. I'm going to consult with the clerk on this. The chair is being challenged, but challenges normally come from the other side of the table. Give me one second, please.

All right. It's non-debatable.

Go ahead, clerk.

[The Clerk]

Shall the chair's ruling be sustained?

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 5; nays 5).

You can do whatever you want.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Madame Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor again.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd just like the committee's opinion. I think we've heard from Mr. Desjarlais on the matter.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Is there a point of order? No...?

Excuse me. Please continue.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I would just like to hear the opinion of my colleagues on the possibility of reinviting the RCMP insistently to come and explain itself.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

The chair strongly advises you to put a motion forward if you want this to continue.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Very well; I move that we reinvite the RCMP and firmly insist that they explain their investigative procedures to the committee. The motion I proposed can be repeated verbatim. It's about reinviting its representatives so that they understand the importance of their presence on this committee.