Public Accounts Committee on June 18th, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Duheme, you mentioned that the Auditor General was prepared to co‑operate with you.

However, I understand that you did not ask for all the information available to her in these files. Yet some information has been forwarded to this committee, such as the list of public servants who accepted invitations to events when this was clearly in breach of the code of conduct of the organization in question.

This may provide clues as to which officials were involved in the case against GC Strategies.

This type of document was sent to this committee at its request. Is this the kind of information that you would also seek out on your own, knowing that the Auditor General has already done the work?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

As I mentioned earlier, the documents in a criminal investigation file were obtained legally. The documents that are tabled here, at the committee, are subject to parliamentary privilege. If we receive information that leads us to such lists, for example, the situation is made more complex by the fact that this information is then protected by parliamentary privilege.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I'm sure that if you were to ask the committee to provide you with information, as we often do with the various items of information we make public, the committee would have no problem providing you with the information you need.

In view of the ArriveCAN saga and the decision to extend the investigation into the Botler AI allegations to what you call a comprehensive investigation into the ArriveCAN project, have you taken note of the work carried out by the parliamentary committees? Have you gleaned any information?

At the end of the day, can our work be useful to the RCMP in any of its investigations?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Of course, the committee's work can always be useful insofar as the information can be used.

That said, we have to be careful. If parliamentary committees were to provide information to the police to promote or advance an investigation, then I would question the independence of the police in all of this.

As I said, the documents given to us are official. So the RCMP can lay charges in court, knowing that everything can be disclosed and that everything was obtained legally.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

At a previous meeting, the committee invited Mr. David Yeo to appear. He had admitted to certain journalists that he had foreign accounts.

I know you can't really comment on such a subject. However, generally speaking, is this the kind of case where you go and look at the accounts, whether they are Canadian numbered accounts or foreign accounts, to see if there has been any illegal activity?

Do you do that as part of your investigations?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

As part of an investigation, we explore all avenues. If a door opens with respect to an overseas transaction or any information whatsoever, we take the appropriate steps to obtain the information.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Does that include accounts in tax havens?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

If it is relevant to our investigation, we do indeed take action.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

So that includes accounts in tax havens.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

What we can do legally, we do.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Up next is Mr. Desjarlais for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's clear, particularly in the many series of meetings we've had in relation to this work.... We've also, of course, summoned Mr. Kristian Firth under contempt of Parliament to answer questions that he failed to answer in another committee. It's clear throughout this process that we've investigated several instances over a long period of time, but this has been, I think, a shocking case to Canadians.

I think it's important to note that this work and what's happened in Parliament, particularly with Public Services and Procurement Canada, has been really troubling. This is one of the cases that is being highlighted. I think what's here is a really deep concern I have, a systemic concern, a concern of systemic corruption taking place in Public Services and Procurement Canada. We notice this in this particular instance, but we've seen it several times. We know this because these actors are some of the same actors that have been involved in Public Services and Procurement Canada since as early as 2011.

GC Strategies, for example, was a tenure to contracts with the government even before the Liberals were in power. They went unnoticed at that time and changed their company name when the election was called. When the Liberals took power, they changed their name to GC Strategies. We see these same actors, these two-person companies, operating under the former government and operating under this government. We see this kind of behaviour of contracts that become huge webs, these massive webs of subcontracting, where even task authorizations are amended several times.

At what point did the RCMP think of, open investigations on or have any comments on the systemic nature of this contracting that seems to prefer certain actors versus others, particularly when it comes to non-competitive contracts? Do you have comments on that?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Mr. Chair, I don't have any comments on the procurement process itself. All I'm here for is to explain that we are investigating several files from the first complaint that came in, from the second one and from others, as Mr. Mark Flynn mentioned earlier, pertaining to procurement.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

How often are you doing these investigations, would you say?

As early as you can remember in your work, has Public Services and Procurement Canada been involved in these types of illicit contracting practices?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Mr. Chair, I wouldn't be able to respond to the question as to how long I have known or been involved in investigations of this nature.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Have there been similar investigations of this kind previously?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I would have to go through our filing system to look at how many files we've looked at in the procurement process.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Would you say there's a pattern of this type of behaviour?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

It's not for me to determine if there's a pattern or not.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

My last question, while we have this round, is in relation to the fact that this is a very public case. We know that there have been political attempts, of course, to benefit from this very egregious situation.

Have there been any instances that you can direct this committee to of any attempts of interference in your investigation?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

To my knowledge, I am not aware of any interference whatsoever, by political or other means.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

We're turning back to Mr. Barrett for five minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Commissioner, you said you're investigating the ArriveCAN scandal—the arrive scam—because of the Auditor General's report.

Is that a fair assessment?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I would say that it initiated in January 31, 2023, with the referral from CBSA when it was Botler AI, and then it grew from there.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay. The Botler AI investigation caused you to open an investigation into ArriveCAN. It was not a reference from the Auditor General.