Public Accounts Committee on June 18th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Of course, the government can change the security classification of names. There's a difference between changing classification and revealing classified information. However, I take your point that it would be an offence for a person who had access to classified information to reveal that information.

What about a case where a person might imply a name? Perhaps a person says, after reading the report, that they think a certain named person should not be allowed to join or remain in a particular caucus. Would that implied reference to a name be a criminal offence?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

It's something that would be reviewed to determine whether or not there's an offence there. It really depends on the detailed circumstances of how the person learned of that name.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Let's say a person receives a security clearance, reads the report, and then says, “Do you know what? After reading the report, I don't think person X should be allowed to be in caucus Y.”

Is that a criminal offence?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

Again, that depends on where that individual did it and the classification of the name.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Suppose this individual received a security clearance to read this information, and then says in public, in front of a microphone, “Having read the report, I don't think person X should be allowed in caucus Y.”

Would that be a criminal offence—a violation of the Security Offences Act?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

Again, that would be something we would have to look into to determine.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

There was a CBC story published on June 14.

It says:

After reading an unredacted report from one of Canada's intelligence oversight bodies, NDP leader Jagmeet Singh says he now thinks that Independent MP Han Dong shouldn't be allowed back into the Liberal caucus.

I will share that information with you for your consideration. I believe very much in the importance of adhering to the rule of law, of course.

Now, we have an extraordinary situation before us today. I think you'll agree that it's extraordinary. We have senior RCMP leadership before our parliamentary committee in a context where concerns about NDP-Liberal government corruption have brought us to the point of having multiple different criminal investigations involving federal government corruption and multiple instances involving ArriveCAN contractors, plus other investigations.

Could you help us go through this and itemize all the investigations that are ongoing involving the federal government, or relationships between the federal government and external contractors?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

That is not something that I have the information...that I'm able to provide to you today. You're asking for a very broad number of things in that question. I don't have access to that information. In the context you're asking about, active investigations, it is not something that we would respond on even if I had that information.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's interesting that you said it's “very broad”. Maybe that's illustrative of the problem. I mean, I'm asking you just to identify all the investigations that you as the RCMP are currently conducting involving government corruption or corrupt relationships between contractors and governments. You've told me that it's too broad a list, that it's too big a list to share.

Just on ArriveCAN, then, perhaps you could walk through the various investigations involving ArriveCAN and ArriveCAN contractors. You said there's the main investigation that started kind of post the Auditor General's report. There's another investigation involving the same contractors.

How many different RCMP investigations are ongoing that involve this core group of suspect contractors?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

For clarification, to the initial part of your question, I did not say that the list was too broad. I said the question was too broad.

With respect to the number of investigations specific to ArriveCAN—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry. I don't think the question is that. I'm just asking how many police investigations there are into government corruption. There would have been a time when it probably would have been easy to say there are none, but we're living in this different reality with the current government.

How many investigations are currently ongoing involving government corruption? That seems like a pretty clear, straightforward question. Just how many are there?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Mr. Chair, I think it would be a jump to the fact with regard to corruption. We are currently investigating several files that are looking at the procurement process. That could lead to an element of corruption, but at this point in time, I'm not saying we're anywhere close to that.

Again, I don't want to get into any details of—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You haven't laid charges yet, but there are investigations into it.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

As I mentioned earlier, there are numerous investigations. When we're dealing with investigations—you can open up the Criminal Code—a variety of offences can be applied. Again, I will let the investigation continue its pace. If any evidence brings us forward to a criminal accusation, we will act accordingly.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

Mrs. Shanahan, you're next for five minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here today. Indeed, I don't think there's a member of this committee who would seek to prevent or interfere or otherwise jeopardize the investigations you're doing. That's why I'm very surprised at the line of questioning my colleagues on the Conservative side are pursuing. Maybe it's because one of the individuals mentioned is a card-carrying member of the Conservative Party. It could be that there's something to hide there. I certainly don't want to interfere with any investigation in the case of Mr. Yeo or any other person.

In terms of the reason that the RCMP was invited here today, I appreciate that you did accept this invitation on the second go-around, because you made it very clear, Commissioner Duheme, that you would not answer any questions—I appreciate that from both you and Mr. Flynn—that could potentially jeopardize your work, but that indeed you would be here to help us as committee members understand your general approach in conducting criminal investigations. What's of interest to us here is that this is particularly in those areas that touch on different operations of government and the civil service.

You mentioned earlier that the referral first came from the CBSA regarding procurement. I'd like to understand better how the RCMP interacts with the various independent officers of Parliament, such as the Auditor General, the procurement ombud and the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. Is it something where you're waiting for a referral or a complaint, or are you generally surveying the day-to-day?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

I wouldn't say we are surveying day to day, but we're aware of our surroundings. We're aware when information comes to light. There are times when we get referrals from various offices and officials. They will tell us that they've discovered some irregularity and they will offer to assist. At that time, we will likely engage with advisory Crowns, who we have in many of our investigative units, who will aid us in dealing with the various complications of receiving information from different offices that have different types of authorities, including compelling authorities.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Mr. Flynn, can you explain a little bit more about advisory Crowns? Would these be lawyers you're working with?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

Yes, we have access to Crown attorneys, who are part of the Public Prosecution Service, during our criminal investigations. They deal with specific legal matters that will impact the viability of a prosecution. They're not giving us legal advice for the RCMP. They're giving us advice with respect to actions that we may take that could have an impact on the viability of a subsequent prosecution.

I use that as an example, to answer your question, because many of the different officers of Parliament have different authorities, and in some cases compelling authorities to gain information that are different from and have different legal thresholds from the authorities that are available to the RCMP or police in general for use in criminal prosecutions.

If we possess such information and use information that has come from, for example, a much lower threshold than what we could use to obtain the information, we would seek their advice as to whether or not we should receive it without a warrant or we have to seek judicial authorization to get it through a production order or a search warrant, for example. Then that would enable proper judicial oversight into the process under which that information is going to be provided to us and ensure that we would get it within the thresholds that would allow us to use it in a prosecution and from which a successful prosecution could come.

Again I would stress that they're not giving us legal advice. They're giving us advice with respect to the things we might do or should not do that would impact the viability of the prosecution.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you for that.

I'm thinking of the Auditor General, for example, who's governed by an act of Parliament. There are some very specific articles in that act regarding confidentiality of information received and so on. The Auditor General is very clear that she does co-operate with the RCMP.

Are there guidelines you have worked out? In other words, does what you're looking for have to be very specific?

What are the kinds of things that help you work with the Auditor General's office?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

The answer is that it depends on the circumstances. As I described, it's not as simple as the Auditor General or another officer of Parliament simply saying, “I will give you all of my information because of the points that you raised.” There are things that can be provided, again, without specific examples, and other things that would require additional authorities in order for us to possess them and use them in process.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Could I just ask—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm afraid that is—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Can we be reassured that work happens?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I allowed lots of extra time, Mrs. Shanahan. The government will have another opportunity.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.