Public Accounts Committee on June 18th, 2024

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I'll ask Mark if he can clarify, but initially the referral that was received by us or sent to us was with regard to the procurement process in general.

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

It's difficult to be precise on the timing of which elements, because when we have different sources of information coming in or that generated the start of it.... We can follow up, but likely that detail will be something that the investigators will not want to be made public.

We can follow up, though.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You have the report of the Auditor General. You have multiple other investigations that are being pursued through officers of Parliament. We have the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner, the Information Commissioner and the Privacy Commissioner. Of course, the procurement ombudsman completed an investigation. The lobbying commissioner has received complaints and information related to this file.

Have you been working with these other investigatory bodies?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

A question of a similar nature was asked earlier.

The challenge that we have when we're involved in criminal investigations is that there are procedural rules, legal rules, privacy rules and different rules with respect to criminal liability, depending on which process you're in.

When we look at it from a law enforcement perspective, for something that the Auditor General or a parliamentary committee may be able to compel someone to come and speak to, they are protected in doing so in some of those processes. There may be a determination later that the person did not provide that information of their own free will and, therefore, we can't use it.

There are times where that actually creates significant challenges for our investigations. We will learn something but can't use it, and then there are subsequent questions about how we are pursuing certain investigative avenues that are based on a process that's not fair to the accused.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Have you requested or received documents from the government in your investigation of the $60-million arrive scam?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

Again, that relates to details of our investigation that we won't be speaking to. I don't have all of that information to provide that detail, even if it did not.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

We've seen the government hide documents and information from the RCMP before, including in the Prime Minister's illegal vacation to billionaire island and his SNC-Lavalin scandal where cabinet confidence was invoked to protect what is a political problem.

If you're met with the same obstruction in this case, what will the RCMP do to recover that information or is cabinet confidence just the end of the road?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

I'm not confirming whether or not there were any claims of any privilege on this. That's just to be clear on that.

We pursue all the legal rights that we have in our investigations to gather all the information that we can lawfully obtain.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Commissioner, we heard shocking revelations about Sustainable Development Technology Canada, otherwise known as the billion-dollar green slush fund, that $319 million in tax dollars had been appropriated where conflicts of interest were indicated. This is found in the Auditor General's report.

Are you aware of these findings? Give a quick yes or no, if you could, please.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I'm not, in the finest detail.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The House has ordered that the documents, the work product of the Auditor General, the documents from Sustainable Development Technology Canada and the documents from the industry minister, all be delivered to the parliamentary law clerk and delivered to the RCMP.

I have two questions. Do you undertake or commit to reviewing the information that's presented to you following this order of the House? Will you commit to updating the public with what the outcome of that review is?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I'm not aware of the discussion that took place or if there's an appetite to share it with the RCMP. I would say that I am open for a review, providing that the information we receive can be disclosed and obtained in a legal fashion, so that if there is a follow-up to do, we can do the proper follow-up.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Up next, we have Ms. Khalid.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

I'll start by perhaps just saying what's on the mind of, I think, a lot of people. It's becoming increasingly disturbing to watch individuals question the operational independence of law enforcement in this country.

Just earlier today, in the ethics committee, the Conservative MP for Brantford—Brant, Mr. Larry Brock, outright questioned the independence of the RCMP by claiming that because the commissioner of the RCMP is appointed by the Governor in Council and because they report to the Minister of Public Safety, the RCMP has a political agenda when it acts in its role. I really do want to know your reaction to that type of insinuation that the RCMP is not in fact operationally independent and is instead being governed by political interests.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I can confirm that the operational independence exists. As I mentioned earlier, the only time I've had a chance to sit down with the Prime Minister, a minister or other ministers was to brief on key operational files for situational awareness only. Never once have we been subject to interference or suggestions or pressure to do something. I can confirm that for 37 years of my career, and from the last six or seven years dealing at this level, I've never been asked to do anything.

I'm sure Mr. Flynn could probably add to that.

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

I would agree. From an RCMP perspective, we take great pride in that. You'll hear it in my voice whenever I've been questioned with respect to direction in the past. It is part of our training, and it is part of our DNA. We have that all the way from our early careers. Whether we're involved in municipal council or members of Parliament, at the provincial or federal levels. We work very independently and without influence.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you for that.

I personally am very concerned with this type of rhetoric because I believe that it erodes and corrodes trust in our democratic institutions and in the operational independence of the RCMP.

I'm just wondering if you can help us understand how disinformation, especially coming from people who are supposed to be credible, who have a large following perhaps, impacts our public institutions and the work that you do, especially in open investigations.

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

I have to be cautious, again, with respect to misinformation. I always like to remain neutral in all of these appearances and to provide the information that we can without impacting what our mandate is. I take great pride in my work. I'm here as an official to help with the committee, and we'd like to focus our attention on providing assistance to committee. That's where I'd like to keep my testimony today.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I appreciate that. I understand the sensitivity of an open investigation, and that's why I'm so concerned about the level of disinformation that is being spread and, quite frankly, about the questioning of the RCMP's independence in this matter.

I guess my natural next step question is this: If the Conservatives don't like the outcome of your investigation, will they malign your organization? Have you started thinking about what those next steps are going to be?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

As I mentioned earlier, our objective, at the conclusion of these investigations, is to share with the general public as to our findings, so that we're open and transparent, which builds trust with the population. I can't comment on any comments that would be made with regard to the RCMP.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Maybe we can talk about a hypothetical situation, rather than talking specifically about an open investigation.

I'll ask you this: How do you deal with disinformation and misinformation being spread about your organization, and what steps do you take to ensure your perceived independence and actual independence are well known to the Canadian public?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

We often face challenges in our ability to share information about what is happening in our investigations for many of the reasons we spoke about today, even post-arrest and when we start criminal proceedings.

The RCMP has a transparency website. You will see that we, as officials, are regularly engaging with media and the public. You will see a lot of our members out with the public at significant events. I'll remind everybody that this weekend, on June 23, we will be dealing with the tragic anniversary of one of the most significant terrorism attacks against Canada. You will see RCMP members out at those events, again, talking to people and sharing the information we can.

When it comes to an arrest and charges being laid, we fall into another category. Our ability to speak publicly is limited by procedural elements in the Criminal Code that speak about how processes are run and the rights of the accused to full answers and a defence. That information might impact those proceedings if released by officials, police included. It could impact fairness and the likelihood of a trial proceeding against the individual.

We're constantly battling between a desire to be transparent—sharing with the public—and competing interests of privacy and the rights of individuals and Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

We'll turn now to the start of the third round.

Mr. Genuis, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

To follow up on Ms. Bradford's question, are you saying that revealing names in the NSICOP report would be a criminal offence?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

If a name in the NSICOP report is classified and is revealed by an individual who had access to that information through proper means, security clearances, etc., yes. They would be committing a violation of the Security Offences Act.