Evidence of meeting #132 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Duheme  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Commissioner Mark Flynn  Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Welcome to meeting number 132 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we begin, I'd like to ask all members and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

Please bear in mind the preventive measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including interpreters.

Please only use a black, approved earpiece. Keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you're not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the sticker on your table, generally to your right, although it could be to your left. That ensures it is an adequate distance away from the microphones.

Thank you for your co‑operation.

I remind you that all comments should be made through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee resumed consideration of report 1 of the 2024 reports of the Auditor General of Canada, entitled “ArriveCAN”, which was referred to the committee on Monday, February 12, 2024.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Michael Duheme, commissioner. We also have Mark Flynn, deputy commissioner.

Thank you, sirs, for agreeing to appear today. You have five minutes for opening remarks. Please proceed when you're ready.

4:30 p.m.

Commissioner Michael Duheme Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members.

Good afternoon. I'm here before you today following the committee's motion last month to invite the RCMP.

I appreciate the work this committee is doing in order to respond to the recommendations of the Auditor General of Canada's report on the government's ArriveCAN application. I understand this committee and Canadians are looking for answers and accountability around ArriveCAN. The RCMP is investigating and using all available information, including the Auditor General's performance audit report and the procurement ombudsman's information. The RCMP has multiple investigations under way into these matters.

The principle of police independence is fully respected throughout all investigations. Operational independence underpins the rule of law and is necessary for the maintenance of public trust. The RCMP ensures that all investigative actions are appropriate to protect the integrity of the investigation and the rights of the accused individual, and it takes steps to mitigate any future harm that may occur throughout the investigation. This is a delicate balance the RCMP faces in all of its investigative efforts.

With this in mind, I would now like to share more information with the committee about the area within the RCMP that has expertise and experience in leading these types of investigations.

Federal policing is a core responsibility of the RCMP and is provided in every Canadian province and territory, as well as abroad.

As part of the federal policing mandate, the RCMP's sensitive and international investigations unit conducts investigations into sensitive matters that may pose significant threats to the political, economic and social integrity of Canada's government institutions, to public servants and to the integrity of the Crown at home and abroad.

The sensitive and international investigations unit investigates serious allegations of corruption and financial crime under the Criminal Code or other federal statutes, within the government or its institutions.

The integrity of any criminal investigation must be protected. While subjects of investigations are sometimes known publicly, additional associates in the alleged offence are often unknown. Knowledge of the suspect, charges or investigative strategy and techniques can lead to potential destruction of evidence, intimidation of witnesses or prejudice against an innocent person. Any disclosure of the aforementioned components has the potential to compromise an ongoing investigation. The RCMP cannot comment on the nature or source of the information it receives related to an ongoing investigation. In the case of ArriveCAN, the RCMP can confirm that it is investigating all associated matters to determine whether any criminal offences have taken place.

As a means of ensuring police independence free from any real or perceived political influence, the RCMP is operationally independent. Police independence is an important principle in a free and democratic society. It ensures that the government cannot direct or influence the actions of law enforcement, and that law enforcement decisions remain based on the information and evidence available to police. The independence of law enforcement is fully respected throughout all investigations.

In sensitive and complex investigations such as the ones we are investigating, the timeline will vary depending on a myriad of factors, including matters of privilege, the number of other ongoing investigations and available resources. As a result, the duration of these investigations can vary.

Today, I am committed to providing you with as much information as possible on the investigations. Mark and I will answer your questions to the best of our ability, all while protecting the integrity of this or any other ongoing investigation.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

We're going to begin our first round. Each of the first four members will have six minutes each.

Mr. Brock, you're leading us off. The floor is yours.

June 18th, 2024 / 4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for your attendance.

Commissioner, you referenced in your opening statement “multiple investigations” into these matters. Is this in reference to the ArriveCAN issue?

4:35 p.m.

Commr Michael Duheme

That is correct. There are multiple investigations going on.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

How many are there in total, officer?

4:35 p.m.

Commr Michael Duheme

I would have to refer to Mr. Flynn to see if we have an exact number, but there are numerous investigations.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Can we get an exact number?

4:35 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner Mark Flynn Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

With respect to this type of activity, there is a broad number of investigations. Specific to ArriveCAN, there is one investigation specific to ArriveCAN.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

There's one general investigation and then offshoots from that investigation.

4:35 p.m.

D/Commr Mark Flynn

There aren't offshoots, but if you look at ArriveCAN as well as other similar types of situations, there are many. That is the category I would put it in. I won't give you an exact number.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Okay. There are many. Are there more than six?

4:35 p.m.

D/Commr Mark Flynn

I'll say yes. That's as precise as I can get.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Okay. Is this in reference to contractors and subcontractors, or does it involve federal bureaucrats and/or government officials?

4:35 p.m.

D/Commr Mark Flynn

Specifically, I am speaking to procurement irregularity investigations.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Okay. Again, the question put to you is whether this is exclusive to contractors and subcontractors, or does it involve government officials?

4:35 p.m.

D/Commr Mark Flynn

It involves the entirety of what needs to be looked at with respect to procurement contracts.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

I take from that “the entirety” could include contractors, subcontractors and the federal bureaucracy that dealt with those contractors, as well as the deputy ministers overseeing that department and, ultimately, the ministers of the Crown who have ultimate responsibility. It's a catchment of individuals that you're potentially going to be looking at.

Is that correct, sir?

4:35 p.m.

D/Commr Mark Flynn

I will not speak to any information with respect to the targets or subjects of the investigation. I will simply speak to the substance of it to give you as much information as I can today to be helpful.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, sir.

I'm moving on to GC Strategies. On the eve of his call to the bar in the House of Commons, Kristian Firth, one of the two owners of GC Strategies—GC standing for “Government of Canada”—by his definition had his home raided. I understand this was an offshoot or a part of the RCMP detachment. It was the sensitive and international investigation unit that was responsible for the execution of the warrant.

How many officers were involved?

4:35 p.m.

D/Commr Mark Flynn

We never speak to the number of officers involved in our policing operations. In that instance, we took the unusual step of confirming that we did execute a search warrant.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Who was home at the time?

4:35 p.m.

D/Commr Mark Flynn

I do not have that information.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Can you provide that to us?

4:35 p.m.

D/Commr Mark Flynn

I will not provide that. Again, that would speak to details of the operation and personal information.