Public Accounts Committee on June 18th, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

It should be, normally. The investigations you conduct can lead to criminal charges in a case. As far as the Auditor General is concerned, if she suspects wrongdoing, she passes the information on to you.

In this case, we're talking about fraud and falsified résumés. She may uncover evidence that could be useful in your investigation.

Is that correct?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

It would be interesting to be able to do that, but in the course of our police investigations, our organization has to go through a certain legal process to obtain the right to access information from any government or entity. This is not the case for other organizations, such as the Office of the Auditor General. The way the Office of the Auditor General conducts its investigations and obtains information is different from the way the police do it.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Have you contacted the Auditor General?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I didn't contact her directly, but there were discussions, yes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

So I assume that she gave you her entire file, including all the evidence and information she had on the ArriveCAN project?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

No, she said she was prepared to co‑operate with us. As I mentioned earlier, the police have to go through a judicial process to get the evidence they need for their investigation.

I think Mr. Flynn wants to add something.

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

Thank you.

I think it's necessary for some precision to be added. The RCMP confirmed in October that we were conducting investigations with respect to other matters, and we clarified that they were not in relation to ArriveCAN. It was not until after the Auditor General tabled the report that we confirmed publicly that we were investigating that matter, and with respect to the—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Flynn.

The committee is well aware that you were investigating the complaints lodged by Botler AI. As the story continued to unfold, particularly within this committee, you realized that it wasn't just about one case or one company, but that it was widespread. There was also the Auditor General's report on the subject.

A lot of people are asking questions, in Quebec as in the rest of Canada. Will the overall investigation into the ArriveCAN case and the sub-investigations you mentioned earlier be made public?

What will be made public: the results of the investigation or just the criminal charges?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I can confirm that, because of the attention the case has attracted, we plan to make a public announcement to inform people at the end of the investigation. Of course, if we lay charges, the documents presented to the court can be disclosed. Documents that are not can be obtained through an access to information request.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

When do you think the results of the overall investigation into the ArriveCAN project will be made public? I know that the timelines for the sub-investigations, which involve people you can't name, will probably be different.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

It's difficult to predict how long an investigation might take. I always use the example of the cellphone: 20 years ago, it was just a telephone, whereas today it's a computer. When electronic devices are seized, it can take time to analyze them. An investigation may require us to interview just one person, or sometimes ten.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Do you think the investigation will be completed by the end of the year?

Could it take a long time, so that we don't receive the results for another three or four years?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

The complexity of an investigation can change from one day to the next. I can assure you that we have the necessary resources to tackle the complaints that have been referred to us.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

So you have no idea when your investigation will be completed. Could it happen by the end of the year or during the following year, in 2025?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

That would be purely speculative. As I said, from one day to the next, an investigation can take a new direction.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Sometimes speculation is better than nothing.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

That's true.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I don't have enough time to ask another question.

Thank you very much.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to add the unused time to your next round.

The next speaker is Mr. Desjarlais.

No...pardon me. It's Mr. Green.

It's nice to see you again. You have the floor for six minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I had so much fun the last time I was here that I thought I'd come back.

I would like to open my round, however, with a notice of motion:

That, as per the usual practice of House of Commons standing committees, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts shall not meet during Parliament’s summer recess unless the requirements of Standing Order 106(4) of the Standing Orders are met.

That's a notice of motion I have now put on the table.

I will continue with my round. Thank you very much.

Commissioner, the Auditor General found.... Finding 1.50 of her report says:

Multiple amendments were made to those non-competitive professional services contracts. Approximately half of the contract amendments extended the contract beyond the original period, which prevented or delayed opportunities for other contractors to compete for work. These amendments also resulted in additional costs.

Additionally, we know that GC Strategies falsified résumés and provided inflated task authorizations to the government. It's possible there was a duplication of the task authorizations to claim for higher billing.

Is that part being investigated?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Again, I'll refer to what Mark mentioned earlier. I'm not going to comment on any of the avenues we're investigating.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Sir, you implied that you're investigating not ArriveCAN but rather an expansion of the Botler allegations. Can you expand a bit more on this for the interest and understanding of Canadians?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

Mr. Chair, if I may, I'll answer that.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Let's have him take a first crack at it. If he doesn't answer it correctly, you can answer after that.