Public Accounts Committee on June 18th, 2024

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Chair, can we put an end to this?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

No, I do have to hear points of order.

Mr. Brock, you have a minute and 40 seconds.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Commissioner or Deputy Commissioner, name one Canadian, other than Justin Trudeau, who can single-handedly block a criminal investigation. I'll give you some time to think about that.

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

I can take that question immediately. I can say that there is not a single Canadian who can block an RCMP independent criminal investigation, period.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Right, but Justin Trudeau did. I'm looking at your conclusions and recommendations report into the SNC-Lavalin matter. I'm looking at paragraph 23, which you probably don't have before you. I want to basically reiterate this so that Canadians can understand where this investigation is at. Although you reached a conclusion not to charge Justin Trudeau, you indicate in paragraph 23 that your report:

...does not translate to the absence of a criminal offence....

However, should additional evidence be uncovered corroborating a criminal intent to obstruct...it would be recommended that the occurrence be reopened for further investigation.

If Justin Trudeau co-operated with you and released cabinet confidences, particularly in relation to the firing of Jody Wilson-Raybould, would that further your investigation?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Mr. Chair, I'd be speculating on the type of information that was received. We operate in a judicial process, and without having all of the knowledge of the authority of the Prime Minister, I'll just leave it at that, but there are different rules governing different entities and processes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have a brief last question, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Do I still have time?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have one last question.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

That doesn't answer the question. If Justin Trudeau released cabinet confidences to you—gave you full transparency, full accountability—would that be sufficient evidence for you to finally conclude whether or not reasonable and probable grounds exist to charge a sitting prime minister, yes or no?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

If we had the totality of the information, we would be in a position to better assess the outcome of a file.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I turn now to Mr. Weiler online.

You have the floor for five minutes, please, sir.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Commissioner Duheme and Deputy Commissioner Flynn for being here today. I know you're doing your best to provide us with all of the information you can within the challenge of making sure that you don't in any way compromise the investigations that you're undergoing. Certainly, a lot of this questioning would be easier at the conclusion of an investigation, to provide light without providing the risk of a compromise of the investigation.

Commissioner, I was hoping you might be able to share with this committee if the RCMP can compel information from the government or its agencies in order to aid in investigations.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

My experience is, again, as I mentioned earlier, that we need the right documents and judicial process to obtain information from other government departments, so that we can introduce them in a judicial procedure if we get to the point that we lay charges.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Commissioner.

In terms of the resources you have at your disposal, would you say those resources are robust enough to pursue these types of investigations?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I have full confidence in the investigators that we have.

It has happened on occasion that we have had to get subject matter experts from outside of law enforcement to help us better understand the types of files that we're investigating.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Commissioner, could you please expand on what the process might be for accessing those types of external resources to help in these types of investigations?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

We would consult with other policing colleagues or look at the academe side where some of them are SMEs in a certain field. It could be fraud. It could be any type of field that could help our investigators, educate our investigators, but also help them in the investigation.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

Whether that's an investigation looking at public officials or whether that's an investigation looking at organized crime, terrorism or so forth, do you feel that the RCMP has sufficient resources?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I always say that when you ask a chief of police or commissioner if we have sufficient resources, every chief of police across the country would say that we never have enough resources, because we want to do everything. The RCMP has resources in which the environment in which we operate shifts.... I wouldn't say daily, but it shifts quite rapidly, and we prioritize the files that we have, keeping in mind that public safety is the number one priority for the organization.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

I certainly take your point on that. Complex cases like this, or perhaps thinking of things like financial crime and money laundering, these are areas that are quickly evolving. I understand that it's important that law enforcement has the right resources to be able to combat the continually evolving nature of those threats.

Changing tacks a bit, I was hoping that you might be able to describe to this committee what the risks might be of prematurely divulging too much information related to an ongoing investigation.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Yes. The risk is to the integrity of the investigation itself.

If we were to start releasing the names of people we're interviewing or accused, you could find yourself putting these people at risk. You could put at risk other people who are associated with these people who are hiding evidence. That's one of the reasons why we don't release names until.... If charges are laid, then, through the judicial process, that's made public—that's when we'll comment—but throughout the investigation we do not comment out of respect for keeping the integrity of the investigation.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

We know that the work done by parliamentary committees is very important. It is a way that members are able to hold the government and its agencies accountable.

We also know that it's equally important for law enforcement to maintain their operational independence, as we've discussed so far today, and to preserve the integrity of investigations. How can we, as parliamentarians, balance our roles and responsibilities to look at and evaluate information in committees, which is in the public interest, without interfering or compromising an ongoing criminal investigation?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

It's important that people recognize that you are governed by a set of rules and parameters when you hold your hearings. That's why people feel, when coming to these committees, that they can speak freely on the judicial side of things. On the criminal operation side of things, obviously the parameters are slightly different. I encourage the committee to continue to do their work, and if we can gain a better understanding of an existing situation, I think it's a benefit to everyone.