Public Safety Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, I came here this morning interested to hear from the ministers about what the Liberal government is going to do, is planning to do or is doing to reduce auto theft in this country.

Auto theft has been a major problem in Canada, and we have seen, for as long as the Liberal government has been in power, a dramatic uptick. If you were to graph auto thefts in this country, you would see that auto thefts were trending down to 2015, and at that point there's a shift from trending down to trending upward, with dramatic increases in the last number of years.

I recently had the opportunity to sit down with the acting chief for my hometown of Barrhead, an RCMP officer, just to have a discussion around auto theft, what the trends are and what some examples are of the problems we have in our neighbourhood around auto theft. It was very interesting to have a meeting with him.

He brought a particular case along with him. He said that this individual had likely stolen 15 cars in the last 10 years, had been charged 148 times, had been convicted 43 times and had the remainder of those charges basically dropped or plead out. He complained about the fact that this was a revolving door. He also noted that the bail system was completely broken and was causing a dramatic amount of.... This was one individual they had charged 148 times. He lives in our community, and a disproportionate amount of police resources goes into policing one individual.

He told me that multiple vehicles had been stolen by this individual while he was out on bail. He was arrested in possession of a stolen vehicle, was put in jail, was released on bail and was awaiting his trial, only to steal multiple more vehicles. He said that there was a bundling, and by the time the court date came, the prosecution would bundle all the charges together. He would plead guilty to some in order for the other ones to just disappear. Therefore, the possession of stolen property, which he was charged with multiple times, would get bundled together because he was arrested for it the first time, arrested the next time and the next time, but he hadn't had the court date for the first arrest; therefore, by the time he made it to court, they would just take multiple charges, bundle them together and enter into a plea deal around all of that.

The police officer was telling me that this gentleman has spent four out of the last 10 years in prison, all related to auto theft, but, interestingly, was never once charged with auto theft. He was charged with possession of stolen property, so that's an interesting feature.

I said to the police officer that it seemed interesting, and I asked why they weren't charging him with auto theft. He said that the trouble with the courts right now is that you have to prove the individual stole the vehicle.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

That's how the law works.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Many times you can't prove—

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

It's always been that way.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

On a point of order, Chair, respectfully, you have been a bit selective about calling out members of one side and not those of the other side for crosstalk. I would ask you to aspire to fair treatment of all members.

He has Salma Zahid as the name card, but I don't think that's who it is. Mr. Bittle is a man of many disguises. He's here repeatedly heckling my colleague from Peace River—Westlock quite loudly, so much so that it would likely hurt people's ears if the mic was on. I would ask that you bring him to order and allow members to speak without interruption.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis. Your point is taken. It was not sufficiently loud that I heard it. Perhaps I've gone into a coma. That may be the case.

I would call upon all members to respect the person who is speaking at the time. Thank you.

Mr. Bittle, is it on the same point of order?

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

It's a different point of order. I was hoping to express that through the history of criminal law, the Crown has to prove that a crime actually has been committed, which is what I was trying to suggest.

I was hoping that Mr. Viersen, who is a passionate champion of child protection—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order.

That's not a point of order.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

—with respect to pornography, could explain why he's filibustering our getting to a bill that will deal with the issue he's been most passionate about in this Parliament and previous Parliaments.

I'm just curious.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Bittle.

I believe there's another point of order. Is it a new point of order or on Mr. Bittle's point of order?

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

It's on Mr. Bittle's point of order, Chair.

I believe that would not have been classified as a point of order but rather descent into debate, and I hope that Mr. Bittle will be availing himself of the speaking list, Chair, which I know you are keeping close tabs on.

To conclude my point of order, I would just ask if you would outline what the speaking list is. I'm sure Mr. Viersen has a few more things to say.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

As said previously, after Mr. Genuis, it was Mr. Viersen. Then it was Mr. Shipley and Mr. Motz, but they are no longer here, so it's Mr. Kurek and then Mr. Genuis again.

Mr. Viersen, please carry on.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Well, thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I was saying, the police officer told me about the fact that the courts have made it increasingly difficult to prove that somebody has stolen the car, so he said in all of these cases, the individual was found driving a stolen vehicle and was charged with being in possession of stolen property. There was no doubt in the police officer's mind that this individual had, in fact, stolen the vehicle; however, the individual was never charged with stealing the vehicle, because, as I was informed by the police officer, the way the court system works is that being in possession of the car that is stolen does not prove the fact that you stole the car. Very often there is video evidence of this, but again, the police officer said that was difficult to use in court, so there are probably a number of things that the minister could do to make sure this type of thing could happen.

I have had many constituents reach out to me over stolen vehicles, like the business owner who owns a business right across the street from my constituency office. He had a Nissan Armada. Now, a Nissan Armada is quite a rare vehicle in Canada—a very rare vehicle in northern Alberta. He also had aftermarket wheels on that Nissan Armada, which made it an even more unique vehicle. There are likely very few in our county or in my hometown. I don't know of another Nissan Armada, and the fact that he put aftermarket wheels on it makes it very identifiable. That vehicle was stolen. Folks broke into his house, stole the keys off the kitchen counter, went into his garage and stole both of his vehicles out of his garage. He subsequently found a Nissan Armada on Kijiji that looked like his and had the same aftermarket wheels that he had. He approached the police to say, “Hey, I found my Nissan Armada on the Internet here for sale. Could you go retrieve it?” He was told that they did not have the resources to do that and that he should just deal with his insurance company to get a new Nissan Armada. These are the stories that we have to deal with.

The other thing I point out is around the security systems. It's fascinating to think that in Alberta, the number one vehicle stolen is a Ford pickup. An interesting thing about it is that, I think up until about 2006, the Ford pickups—the diesel pickups, anyway—did not have an immobilizer system on them from the factory, so they get stolen a lot more because they don't have that immobilizer system on them, like what are termed the “2nd-Gen Cummins” pickups. Many of them do not have what's called a SKIM program on them—sentry key immobilizer module is what SKIM stands for—so those vehicles are stolen more often.

In northern Alberta, auto theft looks different from in Toronto or Montreal, given the fact that, most often, auto thefts happen in our neighbourhood in connection with other crimes. Folks steal a vehicle to then go steal fuel, copper, batteries—all these kinds of things. Often, when these vehicles are retrieved, they're either burnt on a side road somewhere or they're found run out of fuel. Many times, if they're found with the folks in them, they will often arrest the person, and there will be batteries, copper and fuel in the box of the pickup as well.

I also have experienced it in my hometown. A Ford one-ton pickup was stolen, and they backed it through the front window of the jewellery store and made off with several thousand dollars' worth of jewellery. The vehicles that are being stolen are being used in the commission of other crimes. All of this goes back, though, to the fact that in 2017 the Liberals changed the bail system, and that has led to a crime wave across northern Alberta. As I pointed out earlier, for the one individual the police officer showed me the file of, most of those crimes had—

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

[Inaudible—Editor] confidential.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

—been committed while the individual was out on bail.

I am being heckled from across the way about this being confidential. No, it's not confidential. These are all public records, because this individual has been through the court system several times.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Okay.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

He has been convicted 43 times. He's had 143 charges against him. These are all publicly available documents. The newspaper has repeatedly reported on this individual, the crime waves that ensue when this individual is back on the streets, back out on bail, and the frustration that the RCMP feel when they basically catch these guys red-handed, in the possession of stolen vehicles, stolen batteries, stolen copper and stolen fuel. They say it's just very difficult to prove a lot of this stuff. Fuel doesn't come with a great identifier. Gasoline looks like gasoline looks like gasoline, regardless of where you got it. They say that they know it is stolen, but it is difficult to prove.

Now, I'm hearing from across the way that they say, well, there's a burden of proof and things like that.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

It hasn't changed for decades.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Yes, there is no doubt about that. However, my question is this: Are the Liberals standing here today to defend criminals, or are they here to be concerned about the victims? I think that's fundamentally the difference between Conservatives and Liberals. Conservatives are concerned about the victims of crime. We work hard to ensure that crime is brought to justice. We want to mitigate the impacts of crime. We want to ensure that folks who work extremely hard to pay for food and fuel and housing themselves, and for their vehicles, can enjoy those things they work very hard to make the money in order to pay for.

I have a constituent whose fuel card was stolen from one of his trucks while he was away on holidays for 10 days. By the time he came back, 25,000 dollars' worth of fuel was stolen from his cardlock. They have a pretty good idea who stole it, yet the fuel is long gone, and there is no ability for the police to arrest the folks.

Now, the Liberal from across the way is saying, well, you're going to have to prove that.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Yes, that's how the law works.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

What I am saying is that we can change the law to make sure that the ability for the police to prove these things.... The threshold for these things could be reduced. We could make changes around thresholds for video evidence to be submitted.

In most cases there is clear video evidence of folks stealing. It's so blatant. In many cases, we get a conviction. The individual I was mentioning off the top was convicted 43 times. The challenge is in between. It's the same with the fellow who stole the 25,000 dollars' worth of fuel. He was eventually arrested and convicted on another series of crimes, and he went to jail, but he was back out on bail committing more crime in the interim. He was arrested, and he was released the next day. In the intervening months, he committed several more crimes, and then, by the time he was put in jail, he had been charged and committed more crimes, though, again, it was bundled together and pleaded out, pleaded guilty. We see this ongoing.

The police get very frustrated with these individuals, because they see that they are not at all concerned about the ramifications of the justice system. The police work very hard. The police spend a lot of resources to arrest these guys and to build a case, only to see the bulk of the work get bundled and pleaded out. They built cases for 148 charges; he was convicted of 43 charges, and the rest were dropped due to pleading out. That is fundamentally the problem. We need to make sure these guys are being reformed. We need to make sure they are brought to justice.

There needs to be punishment for the crime. Then there needs to be reformation, so that they are not just being released back out on the street in order to continue their life of crime. That has been the revolving door that our communities are extremely frustrated about. The police are extremely frustrated about it, and the Liberals are fundamentally responsible for it. They are the government of the land. They are responsible for legislating. They are responsible for judicial appointments. They are responsible for funding the court system. They are responsible for all of these things.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

That's the province.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Regardless, we have seen the macro trends of crime across this country and auto theft across this country continue to go up since the Liberals took power.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. Kurek, go ahead on a point of order.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

On a point of order, I have certainly been fascinated to hear what my colleague Mr. Viersen is saying and the very practical experience that he's sharing with this committee, but I would equally certainly like to hear the commentary that Mr. Bittle has been providing. Unfortunately, it's in the form of heckling, so it won't make it on the record. I'm sure that he, his constituents and many Canadians would love to know his thoughts on this matter and so many others.

Chair, I would ask, as was referenced before, for the fair application of the conversations that are not supposed to go on across the table and notably what Mr. Bittle has been suggesting, because I have a suspicion that—and I won't get into the place of debate here—his constituents would love to hear the context in which he has been heckling across the table and, interestingly, is doing so at the same time as I'm speaking to you, Mr. Chair.

A fair application of the rules, I would hope, is a guiding principle for all members of this committee.