Public Safety Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

No, it's not at the chair's discretion. You can't just make up the rules, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. Genuis, please come to order.

Madame Michaud, please go ahead and respond to Mr. MacGregor's query.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Who has the floor today?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

If Mr. Genuis will allow me to speak, I can attest to the visit to the Port of Montreal, since I was there.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I can answer Mr. MacGregor's question. No Conservative members were present at the tour of the Port of Montreal.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Madame Michaud.

Mr. Genuis, on a point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Chair, my understanding of the standing orders and the rules of this committee—which chairs don't invent willy-nilly, because there are rules that guide our work—is that a point of order is about a matter of order, not a request for substantive information.

For instance, if I were to raise a point of order to ask Mr. Kurek what his opinion was of some extraneous matter, I would assume you would rule that out of order, so I want to just encourage you to apply the rules and understand that your authority emanates from the rules and not from your person independent of the rules.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. Genuis, it is not a point of order to instruct the chair.

The chair will act according to his best discretion to maintain order in the room.

If we're done with that, we'll carry on with Mr. Viersen again.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I know that I could talk a bit more about the immobilizer systems and things of that nature; however, I will turn the floor over to my colleague, Mr. Kurek.

I would request to be put back on the speaking list. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Viersen.

We go now to Mr. Kurek, followed by Mr. Genuis, followed by Mr. Viersen.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I find it interesting, before I get into the substance of my remarks, that although there is much commentary by other members of this committee, they don't seem to be willing to put themselves on the record in that regard and be put on the speaking list.

As has been—

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

You denied my unanimous consent motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Excuse me, Mr. Kurek.

I would encourage all members to respect whoever is speaking and not interject.

Please go ahead, Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair, and I hope that the fellow member of your caucus heeds your words in that regard.

I would just note that I was very pleased to have a chance to visit briefly with the 4-H members who joined the committee and watched some of the proceedings here earlier today.

I want to compliment them and make sure that it is on the record especially how valuable an organization 4-H is across Canada. They are building the leaders of today, and I have no doubt they will take their seats around tables like this one and in the House of Commons in the future. As I mentioned to the 4-H students before, those impromptu and prepared speeches at 4-H are exceptionally good. Those who have been through 4-H understand public speaking. It's great preparation for things like members' statements, question period and committee interventions. Kudos to everybody who is in Ottawa this week doing some advocacy on behalf of the 4-H organization. There is real frustration about the cuts that the Liberals have made to that organization.

I would, however, like to jump into the substance of what is being discussed here. It's interesting, because there are two very important items. Mr. Viersen has been talking about one. We have the auto theft issue. I will take a brief moment to talk about a story that a constituent shared with me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. Kurek, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I thought it might be helpful to remind the committee of the motion that's before us. The motion before us is Mr. Genuis's amendment to the subcommittee report.

As long as everyone in the room is aware of that, I'll give the floor back to you, Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I'm very glad that you're ensuring there is relevance to the subject at hand. Absolutely, as it is clearly laid out in the motion that is before the committee, there is a very clear connection to the impacts Canadians are feeling about things like auto theft.

I would note one of the stories that was shared with me, because it has particular relevance. Quite often I think politicians gain the reputation of being disconnected from the people. It's a troubling trend that leads to mistrust, not only in politicians but also in our institutions. That's why I'd like to share something that has pertinence and clear relevance to the subject at hand. That is the fact that I heard from a constituent the other day about the instance of—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm sorry, did I hear a point of order?

Go ahead, Mr. Bittle.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Yes. Mr. Kurek is leaning into his mic and just popped one of his Ps. For Mr. Kurek, like me, volume isn't his issue. He can just sit back a little. He doesn't need to lean in to the mic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Perish the popping of Ps, please.

Maybe you could move the mic further away, Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I've adjusted the microphone, Chair.

I'll take this opportunity to thank our interpreters. Although often they sit in a separate room through glass, my colleagues and I certainly appreciate the work they do. I'm happy to make sure that I try not to pop Ps, but as a farmer, when we talk about peas, we generally talk about them by the bushel. That's a bit different from the popping of Ps in the circumstance of a committee intervention.

Chair, I would like to get back to the story that I was about to share.

A local business has a shop on the edge of one of the communities that I represent. I won't get too specific, not only because there is an ongoing investigation, but out of respect for the victims. They had what was clearly an organized, very well-timed break-in. They had about 130,000 dollars' worth of equipment stolen just a few days ago.

I was having this conversation on Monday. As that was Victoria Day, I had the chance to be in the constituency for most of that day before heading to the airport. I heard from this small business owner—who works hard to provide for his family, for his son who is a partner in the business, and for the other employees that work for him—the devastating impacts that this $130,000 in stolen equipment has had on his ability to operate. He and the community that was impacted have lost trust in the ability of the justice system.... As many constituents remind me on a regular basis, we don't seem to have a justice system in our country anymore, but rather a legal system that does not serve the cause of justice.

Whether it is small business owners like in the story I'm referring to, where $130,000.... Now that may not seem like a huge number to people who sit around this table, Chair, but a small business owner losing 130,000 dollars' worth of equipment then has to make the decision about whether to make an insurance claim because of the possibility that insurance will go up to a point at which it's unaffordable. They may even get to the point where they will not offer coverage any longer.

That has a devastating impact on not only that family's life, but the families of everybody involved in that small business. Trust has been broken in our institutions because of the failure of our system to respond to such an egregious incident as this.

This was about two trucks and some tools that were stolen. This was not a huge heist, but it was well planned and it was well orchestrated. By the time the security system had alerted both law enforcement and the business's proprietor, the thieves were long gone. They're looking at a hopeless prospect of anything being done about that.

Chair, the reason I share that story is that it has a close connection to the answers that I believe all Canadians demand and deserve when it comes to the troubling rise in auto theft. This is not an isolated incident. This is a story that my Conservative colleagues and I hear on a regular basis. To hear commentary from other parties in the House of Commons dismissing the seriousness of this matter, Chair, is incredibly discouraging to Canadians who expect a justice system to serve the best interests of our country.

It is further discouraging for so many Canadians when they see that there is simply no ability for the system to actually put these perpetrators behind bars, because not only is it a victimless crime, as has been suggested by commentators, but it has a significant impact on victims, their families and the communities in which they live. The consequences are great. It has a significant reduction in productivity, whether it's for that small business owner, the customers he is working hard to serve, the community in which they operate or how that is amplified over the national conversation around the diminished productivity in our country.

It is time we rebalanced the scales to ensure that justice can actually be served in this country. Right now, if you ask most Canadians, while there are Liberals who would make grand proclamations, there's certainly a lack of trust that exists in the system as a whole, including for those we've often heard stories about. I know my colleagues, Mr. Caputo, Mr. Viersen, Mr. Genuis and other colleagues, have talked at length about this. It is not simply the process to which a conviction can be brought, because there is the burden of proof and the whole process that is fundamental to the rights of Canadians. However, it is often those who have been found guilty of crimes who do not face the justice that Canadians certainly expect. The consequences of that are that victims don't feel they are able to live or able to run their businesses. There's been this societal breakdown that results from that.

We hear that when it comes to the most egregious examples of some of the worst perpetrators, mass murderers, in Canadian history, when it comes to their prison classifications. That's not a laughing matter, as is so often suggested by the left-leaning political establishment in this country. That's serious. Those victims matter. It goes down the entire system, from the egregious mass murderers all the way down to those who—this might be hard to believe, for some people listening—in some instances have serious property crimes, when vehicles are stolen or there are break-ins. In rural areas of this country, the police are not even able to respond, and a phone call is the only response they give.

I don't blame our hard-working men and women in uniform. In fact, I speak to many of them on a regular basis, because those in law enforcement have a tough job. I hear the stories of how demoralizing it is for a police officer, in some cases, to spend hundreds of hours building a case and then to have it simply tossed out or pled out on a lesser charge, or—in the rare case where it is granted, when a conviction is made—for that individual, in some cases, to be back out on the street in no time at all.

It's no wonder that morale in our nation's police forces has taken such a hit under the soft-on-crime, hug-a-thug policies of this NDP-Liberal government.

I want to highlight that, Chair, and I may get back to that, because there's certainly a lot more that needs to be said on that matter. I want to also talk about some circumstances surrounding the corrections system in Canada and how it seems like the government is so intent to not see accountability in that system.

I find it really ironic, Chair, that the Liberals often level the political criticisms that Conservatives are playing American-style politics. They make that accusation often, yet I'd like to highlight what is a fascinating exploration of that, which is that the Conservatives actually have a great deal of respect for the unique aspects of what our Westminster parliamentary system is, and that includes assuring that executive government is engaged in the legislative aspects of how our government functions.

That is distinct from the way the American system works. That is a distinct difference from the separate executive and legislative branches in the United States. In Canada, there's a far closer connection, although there's a significant amount of overlap, and I won't get into what is an extended discussion about some history that has led to that. Canada's executive branch of government is closely connected to our legislative branch, yet it is the Liberals, in particular, but with the support of the NDP, who seem to be quick to suggest that there should not be legislative oversight and there should not be, in many cases, executive oversight. In this case, I want to particularly focus on the legislative oversight and that there should not be that oversight on the happenings of government.

I would make a point here. It is often forgotten by my left-leaning political friends across the aisle that government is subject to Parliament; it's not the other way around. Parliaments come and go, yes. We have every four or so years, sometimes less. In the case of this current Parliament, I know my constituents certainly want to see it shorter than four years. However, as is laid out in every act that is passed by Parliament, government is a creation of Parliament. Parliament is supreme. It is that fundamental principle that is so often forgotten by the Liberals, and we see that is clearly the case in the conversation around corrections.

Let me highlight to you why that is the height of irony. As we have heard extensively throughout the conversation, whether it be about Canada's most egregious murderers, or whether it be the stories that I hear as a representative of a federal institution, the Drumheller Penitentiary, or in speaking to union representatives from the UCCO, whether it be speaking with others who have had interactions with the justice system, or whether it be when I had a chance to tour my local institution, Chair, there has to be that oversight. There has to be. If there is not, it is an abdication of the responsibility at the very basis of our system, and we have seen that over the last nine or so years. The result is that Canadians look at the system, the justice system in general, of which the correctional system is a key part, and there has been a significant erosion of trust in that.

I would just note, Chair, this is not simply from a one-sided discussion. I've—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. Kurek, to the endless disappointment of the committee, I think we're going to have to—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I'm sure. I'm sure.